Schwarz Stein and The Kovenant

Today when I was sitting in the train I was listening to The Kovenant - Jihad. I am not sure if anyone is familiar with this band here(they are an industrial black metal band), but the intro in this song(and the entire loop) are exactly the same as in Syphillis and Disorder(and probably some other Schwarz Stein and Hora songs with the same loop).

I did a bit of research and discovered that The Kovenant released 'Animatronic' with the song 'Jihad' in 1999. Schwarz Stein's first song with this loop was BIO GENESIS, released in 2003.

I don't want to say that Schwarz Stein stole this part from The Kovenant. I was thinking, is this loop used before by a well-respected electronica act?(if so, which act?). Or are my ears failing me and am I hearing something that isn't there? It could also be a pure coincidience. It wouldn't surprise me if they both made the loop without knowing of each other's music.

the link to the Kovenant song:
The Kovenant - Jihad: http://youtube.com/watch?v=2X41-jB_pdA

It sounds like Phantasmagoria to me XD.

Well, I was a fan of Kovenant and saw them live long time ago (I'm at first a metal fan) and your post made me dubitative.
The loop can seem similar but it's not really the same if you hear it well. Maybe the sounds can look the same because Kovenant used usual sounds directly from KORG keyboards.
If I may say, The Kovenant was at this time a bit famous in the underground scene in 1999, and if Hora was a metal fan, he could have heard about it (option that I find a bit weird).

The problem with electronic music is that many sounds (loops, samples, etc.) come from machines or PC's software... Even if the composer can create tons of sounds with them, some may sound in a way "already heard".

carna wrote:

Well, I was a fan of Kovenant and saw them live long time ago (I'm at first a metal fan) and your post made me dubitative.
The loop can seem similar but it's not really the same if you hear it well. Maybe the sounds can look the same because Kovenant used usual sounds directly from KORG keyboards.
If I may say, The Kovenant was at this time a bit famous in the underground scene in 1999, and if Hora was a metal fan, he could have heard about it (option that I find a bit weird).

The problem with electronic music is that many sounds (loops, samples, etc.) come from machines or PC's software... Even if the composer can create tons of sounds with them, some may sound in a way "already heard".

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The sound is obviously different. I personally think that is a simple case of different manipulation with the synthesizer(if you also keep in mind that the Kovenant has an entirely different theme on the album compared with Schwarz Stein or Hora's themes). The pattern of the loop - the pitches and the intervals between the pitches are exactly the same. That's what I noticed about it.

Yes, that's why I wondered if it has been used before, or what the source is of this loop. I expect from a composer who has a lot of experience that he/she shouldn't relay on preprogrammed loops anymore(and create his/her own). Hora definitely has enough experience to create his own loops, don't know about the guy from the Kovenant.

Oh same here, I don't think Hora is a metal fan. The Kovenant has some popularity in the electronic scene(also thanks to the conflict with the industrial band Covenant). Still, I think it is safe to say there isn't a direct link between the two.

It's just a regular synth pattern, you can hear it in over hundreds of thousand songs.

Daedolon wrote:

It's just a regular synth pattern, you can hear it in over hundreds of thousand songs.

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Hm I am not going to claim that I know much about electronic music, but from what I have heard, these are the only two artists with this pattern. If you could give me a few more examples, then please do.

Also, isn't it cheap to use a preprogrammed synth pattern? I don't know, but it is much more fun, refreshing and unique to create own patterns.

However, it would explain why Hora is using this pattern since Schwarz Stein till now(he even overused it on Icebound)

Only a part of it is really...I think it is just mere coincidence. Also Syphilis and Disorder is an ace song, and the electronics in it are fierce and much more advance than Konvenant's stuff IMO. It is just much electronic and powerful.

Yeah, I don't really think there's plagiarism in this, in fact I've seen songs with much bigger similarities than those two.

By the way, that's totally off-topic but thanks for making me discover Kovenant's music, I like it

I don't... see any similarities in these songs... at all.

I think there is definately some similarity at the start of both songs.

Garnet in the Eden wrote:

I think there is definately some similarity at the start of both songs.

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The synth pattern is the same, but it plays on a different key so it might struck you as "similarity" but not straight of plagiarism.

It's all just random chance.

Neovirtu wrote:

Only a part of it is really...I think it is just mere coincidence. Also Syphilis and Disorder is an ace song, and the electronics in it are fierce and much more advance than Konvenant's stuff IMO. It is just much electronic and powerful.

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Actually, the only thing that made Syphillis and Disorder so extremely good was Hora's vocals(IMO). You should keep in mind that The Kovenant is mainly a metal band. Hora had more freedom in Schwarz Stein than the keyboardist has in The Kovenant. It's just hard to compare both bands because of the musical differences of both bands.

Gen wrote:

Yeah, I don't really think there's plagiarism in this, in fact I've seen songs with much bigger similarities than those two.

By the way, that's totally off-topic but thanks for making me discover Kovenant's music, I like it

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Well, I didn't want to get into the plagiarism topic. Because I think it is insultive towards Hora to say something like that about him. And honestly, I think there is an alternative, better explanation. For now, random chance makes most sense.

If you are interested, you should try their "Animatronic" album. It's excellent. Their other albums are ok, but not as good as Animatronic. Animatronic is the perfect balance between metal and electronica(without ruining the metal or the electronic part of the music).

^ Well if you are comparing the two bands I would say that there is no similarity and it was just mere coincidence. You said it was exactly the same, well I don't think it is, really...

Other than that you have changed from "exactly" to "similar" to comparing

I've heard about this band but not enough, if you know what I mean...

Malice Mizer "Ju te Veux" = Pet Shop Boys "It's a Sin". :-P

vapor wrote:

Malice Mizer "Ju te Veux" = Pet Shop Boys "It's a Sin". :-P

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They sound nothing alike But! I never realized how much the opening of It's a Sin could easily be the beginning to an MM/M10M song.

+L+