The A/V Thread

cardy

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I'm not sure what could be causing that noise pattern in the stereo rip.
I had an old cassette deck that would have a signal up to 20khz or so, then no signal from 20-30khz, and then have a weird noise pattern above 30khz. It wasn't audible but it was definitely adding it's own 'magic' to the transfers.

That hum could be caused by another device.
I recently purchased a cheap bluetooth receiver to plug into my 20+ year old stereo receiver.
It's powered by USB - micro B plug and is connected to the same power strip as the receiver.

After connecting that bluetooth receiver, my speakers exhibited a hum when listening to music.
It didn't matter if it was playing from the bluetooth device itself or from another device input (CD, line-input) while the bluetooth device was powered off.

The only way to remove the hum is to unplug it altogether. I did have a ground-loop isolatorattached to it which minimized the hum a bit...but it's still there.

Another possibility is the phono preamp. I notice my old transfers with a cheap $50 preamp exhibit more background noise and hum at a low level.
The newer preamp I use (Lehmann Black Cube SE II) has a dedicated power filter / supply and was actually able to completely neutralize the hum from the bluetooth receiver before I realized what that was doing to other inputs. I now unplug that bluetooth device when transferring records.
 

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Another possibility is the phono preamp.
I'm actually just using the phono stage built into my player, I don't have a separate one. It never seemed important, but maybe I'll look into it more if cleaning up the power doesn't work.
For now I'm going to try running everything through a Furman power conditioner and see if that improves matters.

So I called up a place that does ultrasound record cleanings and pretty much got laughed right off the line ::meev:: They found the whole idea of doing only a few records (or owning only a couple dozen) ludicrous; it seems most of their clientele is people who have collections of thousands and thousands, and play them regularly and send them to be cleaned in large batches, often. They want ongoing business relationships, not walk-ins.
The guy was nice and liked talking about records, but it was very obvious that I was not his target customer XD I mentioned some of the gear I was using and he'd never even heard of any of it because he only uses Ortofons ::meev:: He also presumed this was about Blue Note jazz records because I guess that's what most マニアック at that level are into.
Interestingly, despite (or perhaps because of) catering to the millionaire crowd he had no idea about mono records. I guess it really never comes up.

Upon reflection, isn't this whole business backward? You would think the people with 10000 records would be the ones who'd buy their own cleaning machines, and the ones like me would be the ones paying piecemeal to have single records cleaned. Maybe this is a sign of an underserved market.
 

cardy

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A small hi-fi store near me does record cleanings for 1 Euro per record. I never used them but thought about it before going with the at-home soltuion.
Perhaps you can find a shop that has regular cleaning machines if finding one that does Ultrasonic cleaning isn't easy?

I would have thought the same - that if a vinyl collector has 100s or 1000s of records that they would invest in a proper solution for home use instead of bringing it somewhere.
But I guess if you money enough to buy 1000s of records then you've got money to burn to outsource that task.

Being an audiophile has always been a luxury hobby. During the time I was researching and visiting a shop here to figure out my setup, I came to learn that the pricing gets ridiculous. $1000s for specific parts leading to complete setups being $10-15-20K easily. It makes me wonder who those people buying thit stuff. It surely isn't the spotify streaming crowd.
 

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Perhaps you can find a shop that has regular cleaning machines if finding one that does Ultrasonic cleaning isn't easy?
The first place I went to actually had one of the vacuum machines but they said it wouldn't be any improvement over the job I did by hand.
They showed me a record with, like, a handprint in chalk dust on it and said "If it's already cleaner than this, don't bother" ::meev::

It makes me wonder who those people buying thit stuff.
Jazz fans playing their Blue Notes, obviously XD
The cruel irony of all this is that these people are probably all half-deaf boomers. Even if there is some little difference out at the limits of perception when you buy a $1200 stylus, they won't really be able to hear it.
 
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cardy

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The first place I went to actually had one of the vacuum machines but they said it wouldn't be any improvement over the job I did by hand.
They showed me a record with, like, a handprint in chalk dust on it and said "If it's already cleaner than this, don't bother" ::meev::


Jazz fans playing their Blue Notes, obviously XD
The cruel irony of all this is that these people are probably all half-deaf boomers. Even if there is some little difference out at the limits of perception when you buy a $1200 stylus, they won't really be able to hear it.

Well, that seems like a silly professional assessment that if a record is cleaner than a dirty chalk covered record, then it's as clean as it'll ever be.

With Jazz people, or audiophile people in general, who still buy into the idea that records sound better when things like SACD or hi-res audio have been serving them superior options for two decades confuses me.
All of the physical limitations presented by records really don't need to be dealt with anymore and it's just holding onto the past.

I would much rather listen to a proper CD transfer for all of the records I have which only exist in vinyl format.

And I hope I don't become a deaf Gen X / Millenial one day. At least if I do, I probably won't miss much with the heavier genres of music I listen to ::dix:: haha
 

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Well, that seems like a silly professional assessment that if a record is cleaner than a dirty chalk covered record, then it's as clean as it'll ever be.
Well, I may have been exaggerating a little, but you could absolutely see the smudges on it XD
I didn't actually get to see the cleaning equipment he had, but who knows, it might have been true that he couldn't clean it any better.

With Jazz people, or audiophile people in general, who still buy into the idea that records sound better when things like SACD or hi-res audio have been serving them superior options
Even plain old CD is better than vinyl. The "vinyl is better" myth came from the lousy digital transfers done in the '80s when the CD format was new - at that specific time, it was often true that the vinyl version of a given album might be the best available in terms of mastering.

Update on my tilting at windmills: I checked that hum on my rips and it happens to be precisely 60Hz, indicating some sort of leakage or something. But interestingly enough, if you swing the cables around a bit while capturing silence, there's some particular orientation where all the interference cancels out and the hum disappears.
Of course I have no idea what that is since it's just some point mid-swing XD But it indicates that maybe some shielded cables would help, so I ordered some. Usually I'm of the mindset that any metal path connecting two devices is as good as any other, but maybe that's not quite true.
It doesn't seem to be a ground loop though, as I tried hooking it all up to a laptop on battery power with a USB-powered soundcard and that didn't eliminate the hum.
 

sanctum

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Even plain old CD is better than vinyl. The "vinyl is better" myth came from the lousy digital transfers done in the '80s when the CD format was new - at that specific time, it was often true that the vinyl version of a given album might be the best available in terms of mastering.
There is at least some truth to it, as I have the same album on digital, CD and vinyl, and when listening on the same set of speakers, the vinyl pressing is by far the best sounding of the three. At the same time, I also had another album that sounded great on CD and was garbage on vinyl.
 

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I have the same album on digital, CD and vinyl, and when listening on the same set of speakers, the vinyl pressing is by far the best sounding of the three. At the same time, I also had another album that sounded great on CD and was garbage on vinyl.
Yeah, it really does come down to the mastering I think. But in general, anything a record or tape can do, a CD can also do. Things like SACD or DSD are, as they say, "to go even further beyond".

As for my own issues, it seems like just unplugging and/or replugging a bunch of stuff from the power magically got rid of the 60Hz hum. I think I'm just going to get a foot pedal to disconnect all non-essential devices from power when it's time for "quiet on the set".
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01819NABM

Other verdicts:
Fancy cables look nice but don't really make any difference one way or the other. Might get some more anyway just to prettify things.
External phono stages are something that sounds like magic beans for "audiophiles", but a good one actually does seem to get wider dynamics out of your turntable's signal compared to just using the built-in stage.
 

cardy

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Yeah, it really does come down to the mastering I think. But in general, anything a record or tape can do, a CD can also do. Things like SACD or DSD are, as they say, "to go even further beyond".

As for my own issues, it seems like just unplugging and/or replugging a bunch of stuff from the power magically got rid of the 60Hz hum. I think I'm just going to get a foot pedal to disconnect all non-essential devices from power when it's time for "quiet on the set".
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01819NABM

Other verdicts:
Fancy cables look nice but don't really make any difference one way or the other. Might get some more anyway just to prettify things.
External phono stages are something that sounds like magic beans for "audiophiles", but a good one actually does seem to get wider dynamics out of your turntable's signal compared to just using the built-in stage.


A foot pedal sounds like a good idea....but will it truly disconnect all of those devices from the outlet if they're still connected?

I think fancy cables aren't so much necessary....I guess what you're paying for is good construction. So if you can find cheap cables that are well made, I think that suffices.

The mastering definitely makes a difference.
On certain trackers, there are people splitting hairs trying to find out the best release of any given album.
For example, a lot of David Bowie's albums that were released on CD in the 80's are sometimes ranked to be the best one to go for (specifically the 1984 RCA releases from West Germany). His Let's Dance album from 1983 on CD is supposed to be the best version of that album.

I've heard some duds in terms of flat masterings for CDs from that decade though but in general I rather have a flatter sound than one that is crushed to all hell.

I've never used an internal phono stage before so can't compare or make statements but for external phono stages, I believe different price ranges can yield better results.
I had a $50 preamp for years until last summer when I upgraded to the Lehmann Black Cube se II which is much more expensive. (I'm not a gear junky and this is the first and I hope last expensive phono amp I buy in my life)

Anywho, when I compare transfers done with both preamps, the $50 did surprisingly a good enough job and would be sufficient for most people.
Where the Lehmann shined was when parts of the song became exceedingly shrill, usually from a voice. The cheaper one would crackle / peak / max out and it would distort a little bit.
How much this is noticeable for certain genres of music is questionable. And how much benefits one gets out of a $50 preamp vs. a $200 or $1000 is really dependent on alot of things. Most people say the most important factor to maximize your sound is to get a really awesome needle first. The sound differences from a needle are more immediate so it's best to spend more money there when upgrading.

Also, at lower volumes / quieter moments of a song I found the Lehmann more able to render things much more cleaner.
Everything I read about this phono preamp suggested it renders things more neutrally which I aim for in most of my component chain.
I can always digitally alter the sound afterwards if I chose but if a component starts adding more flavor of it's own then it's baked in there forever to some degree.
 

flowersofnight

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A foot pedal sounds like a good idea....but will it truly disconnect all of those devices from the outlet if they're still connected?
I think so, it physically breaks the connection. These pedals are designed for things like table saws where it really needs to be off when you switch it off or someone will lose a finger XD

I think fancy cables aren't so much necessary....I guess what you're paying for is good construction.
The fancier ones (or at least the ones I tried) have shielding which would theoretically help cut down on interference, but it didn't seem to make any difference in the end. I'm still kind of puzzled over where that 60Hz hum really comes from, since I tried plugging everything back in and it didn't come back.
But yes, in general it seems that what you really pay for with "pro" cables is the ability to withstand getting run over by a roadie pushing a cart full of gear.

I've never used an internal phono stage before so can't compare or make statements but for external phono stages, I believe different price ranges can yield better results.
I picked mine based on the reviews at Audio Science Review, they seem to be the best at testing equipment. It seems there's only a limited relationship between price and performance - a $200 preamp will be better than a $20 one, but the $2000 and the $20000 ones aren't likely to be any better than that.

As for needles and cartridges: it just seems like a really expensive experiment. I've been recommended things like line-contact or SPU needles for stereo discs, but...
 

cardy

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I think so, it physically breaks the connection. These pedals are designed for things like table saws where it really needs to be off when you switch it off or someone will lose a finger XD


The fancier ones (or at least the ones I tried) have shielding which would theoretically help cut down on interference, but it didn't seem to make any difference in the end. I'm still kind of puzzled over where that 60Hz hum really comes from, since I tried plugging everything back in and it didn't come back.
But yes, in general it seems that what you really pay for with "pro" cables is the ability to withstand getting run over by a roadie pushing a cart full of gear.


I picked mine based on the reviews at Audio Science Review, they seem to be the best at testing equipment. It seems there's only a limited relationship between price and performance - a $200 preamp will be better than a $20 one, but the $2000 and the $20000 ones aren't likely to be any better than that.

As for needles and cartridges: it just seems like a really expensive experiment. I've been recommended things like line-contact or SPU needles for stereo discs, but...

There really are diminishing returns with these things and for me it came down to how long was I willing to live with these choices, how often I wanted to upgrade and how much I wanted to spend.
Do I buy something cheaper that's "good enough" now and possibly just do it all over again in a few years later? Or do I just spend the equivalent money of all of those potential "good enough" purchases in the beginning and never touch it again.
I also hate when I find out years later that certain aspects of my transfer process (whether records, VHSs, home videos, photos/negatives) were well researched but then one aspect was not that could potentially make me want to redo some (or all) of what I did previously.

I never researched those types of needles / cartridges. I think once you're in that area where you need specialized needles for certain types of records, I guess you're in a whole other league and getting that appropriate solution makes sense? I thought I was going in the deep end with my research but then I found out that people have multiple needs they switch out depending on the record, turntables with two tonearms or multiple turntables altogether.

I settled with the Ortofon 2M Black which has rave reviews as a good all around MM cartridge in that price range. I definitely didn't want to get into that $1000+ range which for me would've been more about me convincing myself that I would be getting better quality simply because I paid more and I never wanted to cross that line.

And if I'm being realistic with myself, the 2M black sounds good but it isn't insanely better sounding when I compare it to the worn out 20 year old 2M Red I was using before it. I only did A-B testing earlier on when I first got the 2M black and some people say a needle needs X hours of playtime before it shows it's true character. I'm not sure if I truly believe that is a real phenomena but some audiophile swear that is a real thing so perhaps I didn't notice a huge difference because of that.
 

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I never researched those types of needles / cartridges. I think once you're in that area where you need specialized needles for certain types of records, I guess you're in a whole other league and getting that appropriate solution makes sense?
I think I'm sticking with just one stereo and one mono needle of the ordinary kind. But I traded in the mono that I got for a better one, after picking up that new phono stage that can work with MC cartridges. (And now to re-rip a bunch of things, you weren't kidding about the regret :B) That ought to hold me unless I ever come across a 78 that needs ripping.
For stereo I just use a Shure M97x (elliptical MM) and it seems fine. I have each cartridge on its own headshell so I can just swap them out - I don't think I'm capable of doing the various "fine-tuning" adjustments well enough that I'd want to keep the Perfect Setup Arm undisturbed at all costs XD

some people say a needle needs X hours of playtime before it shows it's true character. I'm not sure if I truly believe that is a real phenomena
I'm pretty sure that's just the time it takes to convince yourself that the $12000 you spent on a needle made out of unicorn horn was really worth it XD
 

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flowersofnight

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I just want to put this out there because nobody will ever tell you this. Just got my hands on a tape deck that went through a full restoration process in 2009, complete with documentation.

eslabs.jpg

If you ask "How much will it cost to get it serviced", no one will give you a number, they'll just say "Every machine is different, I'd have to inspect it to even give you an estimate and the wait time for an inspection (which itself costs money) is 10 months".
Anyway, here's one answer. For a very difficult-to-service machine that also needed "multiple mistakes" corrected (lol): $910 in parts and $2600 in labor, in 2009 dollars. That's probably on the high end as these things go and everything probably costs more today.

Good thing someone else (now deceased) paid for all that instead of me. Most of the work I think will still be good.
 

flowersofnight

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Here's my copy of Malice Mizer's SANS LOGIQUE (maybe an original), the prototypical zero-budget garage recording. What a mess.

index.php
I found out what the "mystery line" is all about. 15.734kHz is the frequency of the flyback transformer on CRT monitors and TVs. So if anyone anywhere in the production chain (including the bootleggers) had interference from CRTs it would show up like this.
I don't have any CRTs in my house so I assume the issue is not really on my side and various tapes just were recorded with that interference. Since most people (except small children) can't hear that frequency it probably just passed unnoticed by recording engineers - especially if they were working in the early 90s when we didn't all have supercomputers on our desks to make fancy spectrographs on-demand.

Probably the best thing to do is just low-pass the recordings to remove any frequencies over 15kHz unless you know there's supposed to be anything up that high.
 

cardy

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I just want to put this out there because nobody will ever tell you this. Just got my hands on a tape deck that went through a full restoration process in 2009, complete with documentation.

View attachment 1485

If you ask "How much will it cost to get it serviced", no one will give you a number, they'll just say "Every machine is different, I'd have to inspect it to even give you an estimate and the wait time for an inspection (which itself costs money) is 10 months".
Anyway, here's one answer. For a very difficult-to-service machine that also needed "multiple mistakes" corrected (lol): $910 in parts and $2600 in labor, in 2009 dollars. That's probably on the high end as these things go and everything probably costs more today.

Good thing someone else (now deceased) paid for all that instead of me. Most of the work I think will still be good.

Wow, you got yourself a Nakamichi Dragon! You'll have to tell us if transferring a tape on a Dragon sounds better or not compared to what you used previously.

And that price sounded crazy since I think a Dragon only cost that much now used. I feel like it should have been cheaper to buy one back in 2009 as well since there wasn't so much of a cassette resurgence back then as there is now.

When I brought my deck to get serviced here in Germany, I got a similar "We won't know the price until we look inspect it" but I did receive ballpark estimates of anywhere between 100-200 EUR ($125-250 back then) for a basic cleaning and check.

In the end all that needed was a new deck belt because the old one was worn out. I believe it cost about 150 EUR.


I found out what the "mystery line" is all about. 15.734kHz is the frequency of the flyback transformer on CRT monitors and TVs. So if anyone anywhere in the production chain (including the bootleggers) had interference from CRTs it would show up like this.
I don't have any CRTs in my house so I assume the issue is not really on my side and various tapes just were recorded with that interference. Since most people (except small children) can't hear that frequency it probably just passed unnoticed by recording engineers - especially if they were working in the early 90s when we didn't all have supercomputers on our desks to make fancy spectrographs on-demand.

Probably the best thing to do is just low-pass the recordings to remove any frequencies over 15kHz unless you know there's supposed to be anything up that high.

Interesting find. I'll have to check my transfers of copied tapes to see if that shows up anywhere.

A lowpass filter will work in those cases but I do think there can be some frequency above that line which we can heard.

Sometimes when I playback a transfer (in Audition) I do a selection in the spectral view to approximate what it would sound like if I do a low-pass or noise reduction.
When I move that selection in real-time while the playback head is moving, I can very slightly notice that some of those high frequencies sound a little better when maintaining as much of that signal as possible.

There isn't a world of difference but when A / Bing I can tell and the sound is overall brighter if I'm less aggressive trying to get rid of that area above 15-16khz.
Of course, in a situation where there is a constant hum or sound being generated, I try to remove that at all costs because that just ruins the overall music for me so in that case sacrifice that upper region is worth ti.
 
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flowersofnight

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By the way, I wonder if the 15.7kHz spectral line gets stronger every time you re-dub a tape while there are noisy CRTs around, because it's taking the line that was already on the tape, and then adding another set of interference at that same frequency. Maybe it's so strong on the SANS LOGIQUE tape because it's like a 10th generation copy, all done next to TVs ::meev::
Maybe someone very clever and willing to experiment could use this as a way to guess what generation a tape is, at minimum.
 

cardy

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By the way, I wonder if the 15.7kHz spectral line gets stronger every time you re-dub a tape while there are noisy CRTs around, because it's taking the line that was already on the tape, and then adding another set of interference at that same frequency. Maybe it's so strong on the SANS LOGIQUE tape because it's like a 10th generation copy, all done next to TVs ::meev::
Maybe someone very clever and willing to experiment could use this as a way to guess what generation a tape is, at minimum.

I guess the question is, does that line exist on all copies of the tape to know if it originated from the band when they first dubbed it?

It does sound plausible that there could be a cumulative effect of repeated recordings with a CRT around.
I assume most people had their audio system near their TV back then.
 

flowersofnight

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And that price sounded crazy since I think a Dragon only cost that much now used. I feel like it should have been cheaper to buy one back in 2009
Oh no, that wasn't the cost of buying one, it was the cost of repairing one.
I actually have all the deceased former owner's paperwork from when he did buy it new from a brick-and-mortar audio store in 1984, when it cost about $2000 (or $5674 in today's dollars)
Fascinating stuff - he applied for credit to buy it, and it actually went to a local credit bureau in Ohio, who gave him a reply in longhand. Different times.

I'm trying to replace the belts myself and I see why it's so expensive to get anyone to work on Dragons. ::hora::
 

cardy

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Oh no, that wasn't the cost of buying one, it was the cost of repairing one.
I actually have all the deceased former owner's paperwork from when he did buy it new from a brick-and-mortar audio store in 1984, when it cost about $2000 (or $5674 in today's dollars)
Fascinating stuff - he applied for credit to buy it, and it actually went to a local credit bureau in Ohio, who gave him a reply in longhand. Different times.

I'm trying to replace the belts myself and I see why it's so expensive to get anyone to work on Dragons. ::hora::

Oh, I understood that it was the cost just to repair it back in 2009.
The part I was confused about was that I thought Dragons, even used back in 2009, should have only been $2000-3000? So a $2600 repair just seems insane.

And that's a great find - a deck with known provenance. Did you buy it at an estate sale?

I wish you luck replacing that belt. I would probably be too afraid to fix it in fear of making it worse.
Out of curiosity, I looked up Dragons again in the Germany / European market and saw one for 1450 EUR.....
that is until I read more closely and realized it was just a basic price quote to service the machine.

What I would really love to hear, once you get the deck up and running, is a tape transferred with a Dragon that you previously transferred on your old deck to hear an A-B comparison.
I want to see if the hype around a Dragon is true and potentially worth finding.
 
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