Are the MALICE MIZER's stories in the same universe?

Discussion in '-main-' started by Epsonnakajima, May 15, 2020.

  1. Epsonnakajima -member- -member-

    Epsonnakajima
    Joined: 24 Sep 2014
    Posts: 26
    Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:33 pm

    Hi guys! I am gonna propose here a very difficult subject! It's a very big step from here now! So I ask you a little bit patience. IT'S GONNA BE A VERY LONG THREAD!

    1. INTRODUTION
    So, we know that mostly of VK bands brings to the stage a story and characters. So it's like MALICE MIZER, LAREINE, Moi dix Mois, etc...

    And I have to admit that one of the most difficults bands to weave their stories is my favourite one - MALICE MIZER. That's because we can see a plenty of movies, differents styles of PV's, costumes, albums, influences... anyway.

    One day I kind released my mind to go futher with MALICE MIZER: "what if they are making different stories (obvious), but in the same universe!?"

    This happened when I was translating Ma Chérie to portuguese, my native toungue. And there's one part of the song that says: "I noticed for the first time in a long time, maybe half a century, a cuddling couple." And on the stage performances (that repeat again in Deep Sanctuary VI) Mana Sama, with his female character propping on the Yu~ki's back. Even Kamijo was like waving to them.

    And I started to think: "Why centuries!?; Is there a couple that tried to be together in all this time but they can't or couldn't?" And that reminds me of the firsts Malice Mizer concerts, the Tetsu Last Live, for example. With vampire Yu~Ki biting Mana's character, or in the Voyage Sans Retour as well.

    But, as you may see, that mini brainstorm started to be too messy. So I chose a different approach for the situation.

    So, this was an introdution of the subject. Now I am gonna really try to make my points here...


    2. CONNECTING THE POINTS
    I have to say here that I am not confirming anything. This is a speculation. Or you may say: A THEORY. So, you may disagree or add some another points. But I guess that I have enough points to make a step and share with you, simply.

    2.1 MA CHÉRIE
    I chose, as a first step the Ma Chérie song because is the only one (Kioku to sora too, but in a different lyric version) that was performed in all eras. And, the last song performed in DSVI. So, it's like a song that marks so deeply MALICE MIZER. It's kind their THING. However wasn't enough. So I started to think about the MALICE MIZER philosophy.

    2.2 GARDENIA>BEAST OF BLODD>GARNET and MALICE MIZER's PHILOSOPHY
    The second step that I chose it was correlate MM's philosophy, that is pretty clear in their name Malice and Misery, with one of their last work - Cardinal. But mostly with their three last songs and PV's. And the order of release is VERY IMPORTANT. Gardenia > Beast of Blood > Garnet.

    Let's get a perspective point here. The rose: Bara. Or the Flower: Gardenia with the The MALICE MIZER's philosophy. In some interviews that I read in Tetsu era they say like: The human being was made as a good essence, but the Malice and Misery corrupts them. Or, it's like, is inherent to human malice and misery.

    In Gardenia we see a pure and gently (that's even a lyrics of the song) flower. It's represented by a blondy little girl (doll) as well. HOWEVER, in the Beast of Blood PV we see two little blond girls wearing black, with a machiavellian boy. The blood tub brings back others PV's like ILLUMINATI, that happened a soul sale and a pact with evil entities. (I remind Baptism of Blood as well, but I never studied the lyrics of this song)

    So in Beast of Blood, we can see that the with flower was corrupted with red (reminds of COLOR ME BLOOD RED). As a pact or something similar.

    Then, in GARNET we can see the Eden's Garden biblical passage, but with their vision. (I AM NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT VERACITY OR RELIGION BTW) . So, in PV you can see the all band members working as a sent by the serpent of the clip. And, corrupting that woman (maybe Eve) with the garnet of Éden. The garnet can be also seen as a materialized philosophy of the red flower. That's even a part of the clip that: as the flowers raises of the Red Lake (you can relate with the Blood Tub of Beast of Blood) all the members raises too. With their faces all covered with red flowers. (The members are hooded, and their costume reminds me the same people of Sur TV beggining, or Bara ni Irodorareta people on the audience).

    When the woman "eats" the garnet of the Éden she throws up red petals, and the very last scene of GARNET that is a rain of red petals (THE SAME RAIN OF RED PETALS IN SHIROI HADA NI KUURU AI TO KANASHIMI NO RONDO LIVE PERFORMANCE AND PV)

    Almost the same routine happens with another first triad of the Cardinal DVD: SAIKAI NO CHI TO BARA>KYOUMU NO NAKA DE NO YUUGI>SHIROI HADA NI KUURU AI TO KANASHIMI NO RONDO. Basically we have a very beautiful blond woman protected and veiled, but you can see that she is running in a kind of maze; running away of the members of MM in Kyoumu no Naka De No Yuugi. And in the Shiroi Hada Ni Kuuru Ai To Kanashimi No Rondo, that is like a funeral in PV, and another rain of petals (reminds me the funeral of Bel Air). Even the same girl, was arrested at the audience area in Bara ni Irodorareta! That people arresting her reminds me of some Sur TV footages, but I am gonna talk about it later.

    2.3 THE ROSES
    So, you can realize that the red roses for Malice Mizer is VERY IMPORTANT symbol. You may see in their performances. Bring back from your memory the DSVI again. When it is the MALICE MIZER's time, presence, and performing, they presents theirselves as the Red Roses. They hang the roses and throw to the audience. Again, is their THING.


    3. GACKT ERA
    Ok, that's the hardest part, connecting the eras. We have to be consistent and coherent. But that's why I am calling as a UNIVERSE. Because it would be another stories with similar patterns that keeps rolling in their centuries (Ma Chérie).

    But, going further from here we HAVE to assume, even for a while, that everything that I am writting here has a minimal of sense.

    Another clip that calls me attention is the Bois de Merveilles performance. We know that Merveilles tells a story (WITH EVEN A STORY TELLER - the Story Teller performed by Közi is VERY IMPORTANT here, because he's like transcends time, as Ma Chérie can transcends time) about the continuation of Judith and Gackt. When Judith's destiny was decided by death, Gackt entered in despair and tried to bring her back to life. There was a pact in ILLUMINATI, lamentations in Brisé, or in Aegean ~Sugisarishi Kaze to Tomoni~, and goes on...

    But I'll go slowly...:

    3.1 BOIS DE MERVEILLES' PERFORMANCE
    When you watch Sur TV, a lot of elements, signals and symbols are shown. But there's something quite interesting in Bois de Merveilles performance. Remember that thing that happend in Garnet, with the woman eating the forbidden fruit!?

    Let's presume that is Mana Sama's job here to continues with the routine of the sins. When he visites every single character, they accept Mana, but soon realizes that he's (better, she's) working for evil, and expel him. Until in the final part of the first half, Mana gives then a apple (a blue apple appears in some footage of Shinwa), and they eat and perish.

    After that, on the second part of Bois de Merveilles, each character evils side (let's presume that too) are fighting with their own parts. In another words is all corrupted by Malice and Misery at this point.

    At very beginning of the Sur TV, we can see a cemetery, and the Hooded People reaching there maybe trying to wake up something (maybe is the vampire performed by Yu~Ki). But a coffin with Yu~Ki's going out there is seen in Sur TV as well as Bara Ni Irodorareta.

    3.2 LE CIEL
    I really would like to be more certainly about this song. There is a PV and a Stage Performance for it. There's one of the most difficult songs and performance for interpretation. But, assuming the colors. Gackt was a white angel. So why he transformed to a black angel in Merveilles l'espace? Is he a corrupted and bloody angel now? That's is because he made a pack with evil entities to bring Judith's life back again (or there's an another character from Gackt)? Is the little girl of the Le Ciel's PV like a figure of Judith too? I don't have these answers.

    However, it's convenient right now talking about blonde woman figure.

    4 BLONDE WOMAN
    I started this issue saying that, in MM's universe, everytime when a blondy woman appears maybe a sign of pure, non corrupted being by their own philosophy. That's why is a difficult thing to achieve. We can se that in Verte Aile movie. As most as Gackt tries to save her, more her destiny is marked with blood. Maybe that's is a symbol that reveals is impossible, for every member of the band, reaches. Unless in Gardenia. In Garnet we have a part of the song that says: Stairs to Heaven. And, in the Gardenia's PV we have a White Stair. In DSVI photos we have a Stair too. Some of the Voyage Era photos we can see a Stair too. In Aegean Kai ni Sasasu (of Tetsu's era) we almostly like have something about stair too.

    Anyway, going back to the blonde woman again. The most curious scene for me is a part of the PV: Mayonaka ni Kawashita Yakusoku.



    4.2 BARA NO KONREI YU~KI'S CHARACTER - DRACULA
    One of the most curious thing in that movie, mainly with the Dracula's character is that. Dracula wants Cecil!

    Ok... but why this is curious!?

    I don't know if you realized but Dracula claims that Cecil is a kind of his property. And Klaha is in their way. BUT WAIT. How at beginning of the movie someguy that lives in a VERY DISTANT country sends to you a letter saying that wants see you!? If they're like relatives, or knows each other. Is very curious that Dracula is so surely that Cecil is a woman of your own.

    So, I see that Cecil "being" and Dracula for other centuries already knew each other. But, in this life, Cecil didn't realized it, until Dracula appear as "dream" in her bed.

    And we know that a vampire character Yu~Ki performed it a lot! Even the earlies Tetsu's Era.

    So let's talk about Tetsu's Era.


    I AM GONNA MAKE A CONTINUATION IN A REPLY BELLOW,
     
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  2. Epsonnakajima -member- -member-

    Epsonnakajima
    Joined: 24 Sep 2014
    Posts: 26
    Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 4:35 pm

    5. TETSU'S ERA

    As a MALICE MIZER name, we can't deny it. Their own philosophy was done. However, as a begin of a project and a lof ot changings, maybe them, at very beginning was like testing what's work or not. Thinking about audience and fans feedback, and stuff like that.


    However, we can analyzes the Memoire DX work. I have this album with the photos and all. At very first photo (of the Baroque's part) we have Tetsu's character reading a book. And this book reminds me of another times that a book appeared in Malice Mizer universe. In Merveilles, Verte Aile and Gekka no Yasoukyoku, for example.


    The Memoire DX stories says about a woman that was killed by her partner (I am almost sure about that). But THERE'S a death of a woman with no doubt. We have Mana Sama layed down in Yu~Ki's character (almost sure that's a vampire too) arms. Some character entered in madness and killed Mana (I think it is Tetsu's character). This dispair is seen in Kioku to Sora song. And we have Baroque's corpse thing. And we can't forget that before Baroque was called as Baroque, the song was Sphere of God. I really would like to know what the song meaning by the lyrics of Sphere of God, once was changed.


    Again, in the Memoire DX booklet we have red roses behind the characters. So we can easily accept that their same elements keeps showing over and over. As I said, a kind of routine, expressed by their philosophy.

    Yu~Ki on a stage is a Vampire. As almost like always in MALICE MIZER's performance.

    Now, I am only want to talk about the first half of era of Gackt. The transition between Tetsu and Gackt's era.

    6. TRANSITION BETWEEN TETSU AND GACKT

    Why making another topic? And why this transition? In my opinion, the very firsts gigs that Gackt performed with his beginning with MM is very unique one. He kept singing Tetsu's songs a lot, until the MM members could make better fitting songs for his voice. However, the URUWASHIKI KAMEN NO SHOUTAIJOU single brings the song itself and APRES MIDI. And, after that, Ma Chérie new studio version and Voyage too. I don't remember what became first between Ma Chérie or Voyage, but they are close enough to not make so many difference at all.

    6.1 URUWASHIKI KAMEN NO SHOUTAIJOU SINGLE

    So, I don't know what the real meaning (or the real deal) of Uruwashiki. But, I see the dance ball as a thing similar to Shi no Butou (another Tetsu's era song), and there's a couple, party, people, maybe a ritual of "passion" (if you know what I mean). But, we can assume that Cinderella's figure is near by it. Because of Cendrillon song in Shi no Butou.

    APRES MIDI is talking about Cinderella too? That's is difficult to confirm. But we can say that in Après-Midi our character (and our perspective) went through to another time. There's a similar approaching with Ma Chérie too. It's pretty clear that our character is in France - Paris. We can see this at Voyage ~Sans Retour~ too. When we see Premier Amour song lyric, for example. There's some part that say that someone (the main character) is waiting for the girl (probably a blonde girl that remounts Cinderella) in avenue and their relation and memories can be seen in the sky. That part reminds me back to Gogo no Sasayaki lyrics too, about the heaven thing, or even Aegean ~Kai ni Sasagu~, or even LE CIEL.

    An air that remouts the beautiful woman that was lost in the past, brings to the character memories (Kioku to Sora) and wishes to be with her again, on the avenue of Paris is quite reasonably for me to Après Midi. But, if the translates on internet are right. This woman (that brings air, or is the air itself, like a spirit I don't know) is smiling to someone else. Is that Yu~Ki character?


    Yeah, we can remember here in Verte Aile that was Kami's character one that fights with the Good Guy Gackt character to the woman. But we can see that Yu~Ki's character can fight too for a woman.

    Anyway, that's brings me some problems and I guess that would be the last topic, or penultimate one.

    7. ISSUES WITH MY THEORY PROGRESSION

    Actualy the issues is because there are so many chaging of characters, perspective. One moment Mana Sama can be the WOMAN of the story. But in another time, is a hired actress performing the WANTED WOMAN for the main character. And another another time, Mana Sama can be the woman that he even hired, to perform her. Is insane to put all the pieces together. But is not impossible.


    Why I say that is not possible!? I don't think that is the Mana's form to do things randomly. In Moi dix Mois we have a very long story of a angel that falls to hell and got back again...


    Even MALICE MIZER can be so confusing sometimes. I am confident that is not randomly. But we have this problems.


    MALICE MIZER became one of the most popular visual kei bands in Japan, mostly in 1997 and 1998. So I guess there was a pression for making a lot of stuff. Maybe some productions went randomly. But I still believes that a storyline was built.


    Another thing that's difficult is about Le Ciel again. What is the meaning of each creature there? Is almost quite clear for me. But I still have to think more about it.


    The stages and their own order os songs can be also a problem too. For example. Someday Shi No Butou was played in second on the list. But at the end of the tour, they played at almost last song. The order and the way they performed the songs is another big aspect to consider in this time.


    Anyway, I wrote a lot here. And, as I said, I am not conclusive. But I guess that I reached a point that can be shareable with another people. Even I can get criticized or not. I did my step and I'll continue with this journey. I have to translate more lyrics. Watch more PVs and shows. But thats it.

    Thank you all!
     
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  3. flowersofnight -moderator- -moderator-

    flowersofnight
    Joined: 04 Aug 2004
    Posts: 12620
    Location: Vintage Live House, 1994
    Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 5:26 pm

    Without going point-by-point: why would they have gone to all this trouble and never once have mentioned it? When asked what they're all about, Malice Mizer would say "akui to higeki" or "ningen to wa?", but never "The story of the vampire and the little blonde girl". When they broke up (either time), nobody said "Now we're never going to finish the big story" or anything like that.

    And take some of the interviews with Klaha:
    https://www.scape.sc/translations/mm-gardeniainterview.php
    https://www.scape.sc/translations/mm-beastofbloodinterview.php
    They do mention having a sort of thematic link between the "bara no seidou"-era releases, but they also mention writing the story as they go.

    Note that it's a new story, not an ongoing one, and they all kind of workshopped it together. And Klaha, being the new guy who "only knew a bit about Malice Mizer", never mentions anything about having to learn 8 years of backstory before he could write lyrics, or anything like that. They just wrote songs together.

    By contrast, take an album that did have a ridiculous, convoluted story bolted onto it: Lareine's "fierte no umi to tomo ni kieyu". They made no effort to hide it - in fact you could even get a first-press booklet explaining the story of "Aoi Genei" in detail, such as it was. I think if Malice Mizer had had an overarching story, they would have similarly made it known.
     
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  4. Epsonnakajima -member- -member-

    Epsonnakajima
    Joined: 24 Sep 2014
    Posts: 26
    Posted: Fri May 15, 2020 6:07 pm

    I see, I am gonna read later all these interviews.

    And I see your point.

    Even you see as an a different story, what I am saying that is a different story too. But I there's some part of me that believes that is in the same universe. Even it is a different story. But with the same philosophy of malice and misery configurations that has travaled throughout the whole eras of the band.

    Still have somethings that are shown in one era that can be repeated in another one. The Voyage VHS live, with Yu~Ki being a vampire to Bara Ni Irodorareta. And I am not saying that he is the same vampire. But you know, this plot pattern of the vampire trying to reach a girl, and the vocalist/main character/gackt and klaha trying to save her.

    Is this kind of stuff that I am talking about.

    But I don't matter if I am all wrong too.

    cheers
     
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  5. MorganIvy -current- -current-

    MorganIvy
    Joined: 01 Mar 2005
    Posts: 1166
    Location: Lisbon, Portugal
    Posted: Sat May 16, 2020 10:05 am

    Well the vocalist was the prince, theres not much to it... they each had a character/set of characters throughout the whole span of the band.

    I guess after merveilles they just decided to get back to their older concepts/ideas, which is why we see a lot of repetition on vampires and an innocent girl being sacrificed sort of thing? Either they were out of ideas or they decided to refine the pre-merveilles concepts after gackt left.

    Also, regarding Gackt being an angel then a dark angel in Le Ciel, pretty sure they've said in interviews that they're not angels at all. Ever. I'll see if i can find it, but there are a LOT of translated interviews where they talk about each song and you should read those if you're trying to connect everything. Maybe it'll clear some things up and make it less convoluted?
     
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  6. Epsonnakajima -member- -member-

    Epsonnakajima
    Joined: 24 Sep 2014
    Posts: 26
    Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:55 pm

    MorganIvy wrote:
    Thank you! Bring to us these interviews!!
     
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  7. Moonlightprince -member- -member-

    Moonlightprince
    Joined: 13 Apr 2019
    Posts: 8
    Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 1:56 pm

    I will explain my opinion at various points

    1
    Malice mizer split not for lack of ideas. I certainly think it was the circumstances with GACKT. He says that his best friend was Kami and it took him a long time to go to his grave

    He says that Malice Mizer cannot write good songs or exist without him and he has a career in Pop that has only been famous.

    His music doesn't tell me anything

    Unfortunately Kami's death was important and at the end of Bara No Seidou they would think that it is not worth continuing without the original members

    2


    Malice Mizer does not repeat ideas and concepts for me.


    MEMOIRE DX


    Clearly as you say it can be the story of a woman murdered by her partner


    VOYAGE


    The story of how a person begins that journey (transforms into a vampire) everything that means


    MERVEILLES


    I like to analyze song by song. But basically I think the story tells us as a person by losing the person he loves makes a pact with a demon.

    She doesn't come back the same as before. But I already say that it is important to analyze and especially in concerts because of your order, it gives us many clues

    I think that Heaven symbolizes how this person falls to hell and the other members symbolize demons (wonders that come to take him away)


    BARA NO SEIDOU


    It tells the story of a series of events in a dark and gloomy sanctuary



    INTERESTING

    Which symbolize roses?


    the representation of yuki voyage and his possession with the mask?


    Mezame no rasen?

    Here I think they represent the invocation of the devil. Kozi is Baphomet and Mana I think Semiramis although I'm not sure about this





    These are all my theories but I love even today to talk about it with fans because of the fascination I have for the band
     

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  8. MorganIvy -current- -current-

    MorganIvy
    Joined: 01 Mar 2005
    Posts: 1166
    Location: Lisbon, Portugal
    Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 5:03 pm

    #8
  9. faith -tea party- -tea party-

    faith
    Joined: 05 Aug 2004
    Posts: 5057
    Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 8:49 pm

    Haha oh yeah I made that XD
     
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