I think we need a new rule.

Discussion in '-feedback-' started by Amatsu, Jan 3, 2007.

  1. Amatsu -member-

    Amatsu
    Joined: 01 Jan 2006
    Posts: 4576
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 9:09 pm

    Recently i've noticed a lot of attacks and multiple people ganging up on one person. This has happened to me twice a long time ago, and it really feels like crap to have so many people gang up on you for stateing your opinion. i know some people might think its stupid for one like me to take internet conversations seriously, but words are words, and despite what they teach in kindergarten, words do hurt. However, I'm not requesting this rule on my own behalf. It seems that recently more then ever people in the forum have been attacked [when i say attacked, i mean someone replying to them and treating their post and their opinion like crap] and being ganged up on and, i'm going to use the word 'bullied' by people who are opposing their opinion in the same manner. i'll give an example:

    Person wrote:
    ...Then a few people tell him that hes wrong for the same reasons only in different wording. they all say it in a rude way, with a 'you're opinion is meaningless and worthless' type of feeling

    i see this everywhere these days, and its what made me realize i need to decide wether or not i'm going to leave the forums. i feel like there are some people who are above the rules and get away with a lot more then other people.

    The rule i am suggesting is No Bullying. theres already no personal attacks, but i think there should be something about no ganging up on one member.

    -Jeremy.
     
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  2. Moizer -member- -member-

    Moizer
    Joined: 01 Sep 2004
    Posts: 573
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 9:36 pm

    People don't just 'gang up' on one member for the fun of it- usually if someone is acting like an asshole, they get justified.

    This isn't grade school. I think we're all mature enough to handle a little fight here and there. And if things get too out of hand, the mods step in and take care of it.
     
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  3. flowersofnight -moderator- -moderator-

    flowersofnight
    Joined: 04 Aug 2004
    Posts: 12618
    Location: Vintage Live House, 1994
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 9:41 pm

    I think our existing rules are all we need. As always, if there's something bothering you, you can take it up with whichever moderator you're more comfortable asking.

    Moreover, I think this proposed rule would be way too vague anyway, and too prone to being thrown around in retaliation during an argument. Let's just use our common sense instead.
     
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  4. Miz -member- -member-

    Miz
    Joined: 06 Oct 2005
    Posts: 1584
    Location: Walter's Castle
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 9:42 pm

    Moi_Dix_Mizer wrote:
    So you don't notice how when one person does something, two or three people, in spaced intervals decide to take up the mod position and proceed to try to look all funny/cool while making sarcastic comments.

    I somehow knew this would happen. If you don't notice it, you must be one of those people who thinks its funny or only reads posts you disagree with.

    I don't think Akane was being an 'asshole' when she was talking about the video. but, still a bunch of people decided to drag out a bunch of comments on one thing that was already addressed on the last page.
     
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  5. Amatsu -member-

    Amatsu
    Joined: 01 Jan 2006
    Posts: 4576
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 9:48 pm

    Moi_Dix_Mizer wrote:
    i'm not saying that we have bad mods, because we dont, we have the best mods ive seen on a forum, but i've seen personal insults that have been either ignored, or probably just overlooked.

    if you havent noticed the ganging up going on, you must have been skipping a lot of posts, not leaving the moi dix mois board, or just missed some things. it hasn't happened to me, but i see it happening to others and honestly, it freaks me out that people feel okay when bullying others online in a group. i'm also surprised that a lot of people havent been banned for personal insults.

    i can give real examples, but i dont want to say any names, and i don't want to bring other people into this, its not personally towards anyone, i'd just like some more peace in this forum.

    edit: ok, i just say flowers' post. i guess your right flowers. it would be vague. i dunno i just feel something needs to be done since its been really in abundance recently. i still think it should be discussed, it might make a clearer understanding between people on the forum.
     
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  6. Moizer -member- -member-

    Moizer
    Joined: 01 Sep 2004
    Posts: 573
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 10:19 pm

    Miz wrote:
    Funny, a thread about peace and all you do is post and try to take another stab at me.
     
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  7. Berserk -member- -member-

    Berserk
    Joined: 13 Apr 2006
    Posts: 2383
    Location: Michigan
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:04 pm

    Moi_Dix_Mizer wrote:
    There's not even anything to be fighting about, and you two manage to make this a venomous conversation? The next time someone takes a stab at you, ignoring it would probably be best.

    The problem that I've been seeing lately (even on the Moi dix Mois forum) isn't so much ganging up as it is just venomous attitudes like this. I don't think there's any rule to be enforced to make it better, but I think everyone can make an effort to just cool eachother off and ignore snide remarks. I've actually noticed this independently as well, so that really says something.
    Thing is, I don't see any real assholes on these forums. People who are just mildly irritating or dull have gotten a lot of heat whereas they would normally just be ignored or corrected.
     
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  8. Amatsu -member-

    Amatsu
    Joined: 01 Jan 2006
    Posts: 4576
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:08 pm

    edit: i think theres a lot of personal grudges, but thats just what i gathered from Moi Dix Mizer's 'another stab' post.
     
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  9. Kyuketsuki -dead scape- dead scape

    Kyuketsuki
    Joined: 27 Sep 2005
    Posts: 4429
    Location: 5 paces behind Seth with a pair of scissors....
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:14 pm

    Okay, so basically what it looks like is all the newer people that have been criticized at one point or other have a grudge against the older members of the forum who they think are 'ganging up on them', am I right?

    Might I remind you good people that this forum used to be notorious for elitism and general unfriendliness in the online visual kei community- still is, actually, but it isn't as bad as it used to be. Of course, I wasn't there when it *was* completely like that, but I did show up for the tail end of it and the shift in command at that time, and I *have* heard stories.

    The point I'm trying to make is that this forum used to be a much harsher place, and a lot of the older members left because of people starting topics or posting posts like "omg, mana is sooooooo pretti! Where can I buy that?" and what not- you know what I mean.

    If you feel like people are jumping on your opinion, then defend it instead of cowering in a corner thinking people are picking on you, because they aren't- they're challenging you to try and figure out where your views stand and how legitimate they really are.

    A big rule on scape is always back up what you post. If you've got some new info, great, post the link where you got it from. Have a rather unique opinion, great, tell us why you think that. Some members accuse others of 'being too technical'. That's just their way of fully backing their opinion so that there are no holes for others to 'attack'. Those who accuse others of their technicality do so usually because they have no clue what the person's saying.

    So kids, today's lesson is do your research and maybe you won't get 'ganged on'. :|




    @AMATSU: Automatic fail for just doing what you've accused others of doing to you. :|
     
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  10. Amatsu -member-

    Amatsu
    Joined: 01 Jan 2006
    Posts: 4576
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:25 pm

    Kyuketsuki wrote:
    i didn't see berserks post because he posted it when i was still typing mine. you have no right to tell me i fail for anything.

    also, i don't consider making fun of what someone said, how they said it, and how they typed it is challenging your opinion, its teasing, and its annoying.

    i usually have to dull down my opinion trying to avoid being verbally attacked, its stupid that i have to censor my opinion in order to not be yelled at, and yes, ganged up on. i've never attacked someone on this forum with a paragraph telling them that their OPINION is wrong, and imply strongly with sarcasm that they suck [for lack of a better term] for thinking so.
     
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  11. Orchid -member-

    Orchid
    Joined: 30 Aug 2004
    Posts: 1127
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:34 pm

    Amatsu wrote:
    That's called common decency. :|

    This is getting way too far out of hand, and it's probably in the best interest for the forum community as a collective if we just ... not continue onward as we are pointing fingers and crying foul because either you've lost whatever pointless argument you've jumped into without cause or started yourself or feel a need to vindicate whoever it was who's called you out in the past. This goes for all parties involved; that is to say, everyone guilty of not helping to make what they say is an enormous problem any better, when said problem was mostly their own doing.

    In short: say NO to the [​IMG] [​IMG]!
     
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  12. Kyuketsuki -dead scape- dead scape

    Kyuketsuki
    Joined: 27 Sep 2005
    Posts: 4429
    Location: 5 paces behind Seth with a pair of scissors....
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:38 pm

    Just one more thing, Orchid, and I'm sorry, I know you're trying to get us to stfu like we should have 11 posts ago, but:

    Amatsu wrote:
    Ha....ahaha.....I think I just did. And no matter who you were refering it to, you still did it. :|

    No, this is a discussion, and you want to discuss people's actions and responses, so I was discussing yours. Now who's starting the personal attacks?

    Post me one example, please. And I'm sorry that you feel like you have to dumb down your opinion, because I don't think anyone else has to do that (please correct me, guys, if I'm wrong). What's wrong that you think you can't post it? And I really mean no offense or sarcasm at this, but do you think you can't defend against others' opinions? :/

    ---

    And I rest my case there. Anyone feeling the need to further debate with me can PM me- I leave this thread. :)
     
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  13. flowersofnight -moderator- -moderator-

    flowersofnight
    Joined: 04 Aug 2004
    Posts: 12618
    Location: Vintage Live House, 1994
    Posted: Wed Jan 3, 2007 11:50 pm

    Well, I think everyone's mostly sorted this out correctly. The consensus: everyone needs to just chill out.

    Amatsu wrote:
    This bears a little extra attention. I do want to say: in general there's no reason for someone to comment on the personal motivations, writing style, tone, etc. of someone's argument. Stick to whatever it is you're discussing and don't get personal.
     
    #13
  14. Geisha -member- -member-

    Geisha
    Joined: 05 Aug 2004
    Posts: 2215
    Location: In midnight ruins...
    Posted: Thu Jan 4, 2007 6:14 pm

    The rule already exists, it just isn't enforced anymore:

    LejuN wrote:
    For reference, it can be found here:

    http://www.scapeforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1204

    Kyuketsuki wrote:
    You weren't there but I was. Let me assure you that it was a much more peaceful, friendly and overall enjoyable place than it is now. People came here to exchange news and information and discuss them respectfully and intelligently, and those who caused trouble by attacking others, stirring up rumours or spamming sensible discussions full of inane rubbish were told to behave. Sadly, since then the standards have been slipping and as a result -scape- now has more arguments and because it is perceived as less elitist attracts more inane posters than it used to. In that context being considered less "notorious" is hardly an improvement.
     
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  15. navate -member- -member-

    navate
    Joined: 05 Aug 2004
    Posts: 3716
    Location: nj : usa
    Posted: Thu Jan 4, 2007 7:17 pm

    You know, I'm not sure it's the standards slipping so much as the crowd's different. I don't remember Lejun or Ama ever having to throw the rules in people's faces. Maybe they did, and I didn't notice because I wasn't the one having to correct people all the time… Maybe I'm just trying to excuse myself from not holding to those standard. I don’t know.

    But I fully agree with you, Geisha. The standards have slipped, and I do not like it. A lot of it, I blame on the sloppiness of the hand-over. But some of blame very squarely falls on me and Flowers. I admit to avoiding and ignoring different issues simply because it was less of a headache. But things are starting to snowball lately.

    The random thread used to be full of interesting discussion. Now people use it like a journal to post stupid crap and complain about their friends and parents....and maybe it's just me, but I feel like because Random has become more lax, the rest of the forum has too. People take the immature attitude they display there and bring it into other topics... People take cheap shots at each other in different threads. People bring arguments from one thread INTO another thread instead of being adult and letting it drop. People start personal shit. People get needlessly melodramatic about the most pointless topics. Even the avatars have been steadily increasing in size.

    I'm very, very tired of the atmosphere here anymore. I know I haven’t been doing my job lately. I know I haven’t been around. But I want to change that. I don’t care if I feel like a patronizing grinch correcting people all the time.

    Am going to bring this up with Flowers in our Mod forum... see whether or not we're on common ground and what we can do together to fix things. Suggestions are welcome.
     
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  16. MMike -member- -member-

    MMike
    Joined: 28 Dec 2004
    Posts: 820
    Location: Göteborg, Sweden
    Posted: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:51 pm

    I just want to say that Scape is still a lot better than most of the piece of shit forums out there. I'm not saying this because I don't think we need to get better, cause we really do. Not just the mods (especially not the mods), but just the avrage user. I'm saying this because I really hope people won't give up on Scape. With Scape my standards for a forum has really gotten a lot higher and I would kill myself before going back to those crappy fangirl messageboards.
    So let's all work hard on making Scape as good as it used to, if not better. But above all, please don't let Scape die.
     
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  17. navate -member- -member-

    navate
    Joined: 05 Aug 2004
    Posts: 3716
    Location: nj : usa
    Posted: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:06 pm

    MMike wrote:
    Of course not. :)

    We're working on ways to clean stuff up now. We know we're not one of those terrible forums, but we need to take measures to stop the descent into becoming one. So many folks come here and stay here precisely because it's not like other J-forums. We need to keep it that way.
     
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  18. Amatsu -member-

    Amatsu
    Joined: 01 Jan 2006
    Posts: 4576
    Posted: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:14 am

    navate wrote:
    Your post makes me really happy. i have read a lot of old threads and i liked how it was back then. Also, i'm glad it was said to not let scape die. I'm on this site probably more then any other. ::kisaki::
     
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  19. Orchid -member-

    Orchid
    Joined: 30 Aug 2004
    Posts: 1127
    Posted: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:31 am

    Geisha wrote:
    Yeah, I'm in assent with the principal view that nearly all of us can agree on that our set standard's fallen a bit behind in recent time, but counterpoint: said majority here that feel this way, being as such, aren't the source of this decline. That doesn't wholly exempt them from neglecting and ending up taking part in a detrimental argument or otherwise but I'd sooner indict a handful of individuals for being at least a larger part of these troubles. Also, the other extreme of radical elitism, or even a misconception on the part of potential respectable posters would be no better.

    navate wrote:
    In regard to both your and flowers' part as being, I feel, excellent moderators and have been second to none in your efforts towards this forum and the -scape- Web site totally, for as long as we would have your management and insight, and also in equal weight the presence of our veteran posters, I don't believe that we would ever need worry about demeaning ourselves into boards such as that. However, change and a new direction is important and needed, and any decisions made towards this ideal would indefinitely have my full support.
     
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  20. Amatsu -member-

    Amatsu
    Joined: 01 Jan 2006
    Posts: 4576
    Posted: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:58 am

    I'm kinda thinking maybe we need a third mod... it might help. it'd be hard to find one up to par with flowers and navate though.
     
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