Interview with an ex-visual kei record executive

Einherjer

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Nocturne wrote:
um, which members of MM went missing or were damaged in some way? Nor did he use their songs. I dont think we would ever see MM performing Vanilla

really? i thought that was a very MMesque song going by things like illuminati, hakai no hate, and ma cherie.
it's the goofy music video that changes our perception of what is likely to be gackt's magnum opus. i always felt like gackt wrote it for malice mizer but the other members didn't feel comfortable performing it.
 

Berserk

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dogfight wrote:
I hope your joking and not actually trying to imply that Gackt killed Kami. I know there are a lot of Gackt haters here, but I expected no one would sink that low.
Yeah, holylampposts isn't stupid. Just hilarious.

I thought your critique was interesting, so I addressed it:
dogfight wrote:
If that isn’t enough to alert you that the interview is a hoax, just consider the basic premise behind it. A wealthy Japanese ex-corporate executive is willing to risk both jail and death in order to rat out the mafia to a blogger. What’s more, we are never given the name of this executive. Instead he goes by a one name pseudonym making it impossible to verify who he is or even if he exists. This violates the 6th rule of the Authority Appeal fallacy. You should never trust unnamed sources !
This contradicts itself: The pseudonym is exactly what makes it plausible that he may be offering risky information. Though you shouldn't necessarily trust a source hiding behind a pseudonym when it is being reported in a non-professional venue like this blog, serious news reporters practice this all the time and the pseudonym shouldn't discredit the source in any way. Again, it actually is what makes it more plausible.

Also, this isn't "ratting out the mafia". Really, like Geisha has already said, it's not blowing the lid off of anything; it's hardly an exposé of anything--a lot of this stuff can apply to just about any popular music scene. It's mostly just juicy hyperbole with some fascinating (and believable) tidbits mixed in.

The apparent contradiction about bands being able to leave labels reflects how shoddily prepared the report is, but I don't think it's totally contradictory--when he's talking about guys like Kamijo who left labels and started their own, those were smart, talented guys that didn't tie themselves down with bad contracts early on. The other bands who are tied to the label are those that were manufactured and made up of street punk hacks that didn't know what they were doing, hadn't even finished school, and signed shitty contracts. The fact that the article makes no effort to distinguish between the smart, talented musicians in the scene and the total tools is to their discredit for sure. But I don't think it's a contradiction.

Also, he didn't say indie labels are all employees of major labels, he said they are employees of parent indie labels, so to speak. Right? And then those parent labels sell their "child" labels to actual major labels. So again, not really a contradiction, just fuzzy reporting.

Good criticism, though. This really is unprofessional.
 

Dogfight

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Berserk wrote:
This contradicts itself: The pseudonym is exactly what makes it plausible that he may be offering risky information. Though you shouldn't necessarily trust a source hiding behind a pseudonym when it is being reported in a non-professional venue like this blog, serious news reporters practice this all the time and the pseudonym shouldn't discredit the source in any way. Again, it actually is what makes it more plausible.

Actually, it doesn't. The pseudonym is just a reason for why the blogger doesn’t have to name his source. By using an unnamed source he can make up any lie and pretend its from an ”industry insider”. That’s the reason why you don’t trust an anonymous source it can’t be verified. Verifiability is far more important than plausibility.

Berserk wrote:
Also, this isn't "ratting out the mafia". Really, like Geisha has already said, it's not blowing the lid off of anything; it's hardly an exposé of anything--a lot of this stuff can apply to just about any popular music scene. It's mostly just juicy hyperbole with some fascinating (and believable) tidbits mixed in.

Now you've just contradicted yourself. You excuse his use of a pseudonym because you say it proves what he's saying is dangerous. Then you say its not really that dangerous. Either he is using pseudonym because its dangerous or he's not. It can't be both.

Also he's started back tracking.

http://www.hellodamage.com/top/2010/03/ ... /#comments

In his recent post he claims that there is no mafia involvement in the industry.

* The Mob has no, repeat NO involvement in the industry, so I’d better take back what I said . . . or else the Mob will get me.

While in the original he clearly says the mafia controls the whole industry.

But don’t get it twisted: the Visual Kei industry is NOT more mobbed-up than any other part of the entertainment industry in Japan. That’s fine. Precisely BECAUSE the Visual Kei mobsters are so typical, visual is a good way to learn about the dark side of Japanese entertainment IN GENERAL.

This just ads even more inconsistencies and contradictions to his story. Now there's no reason why his source should be anonymous.

Berserk wrote:
The apparent contradiction about bands being able to leave labels reflects how shoddily prepared the report is, but I don't think it's totally contradictory--when he's talking about guys like Kamijo who left labels and started their own, those were smart, talented guys that didn't tie themselves down with bad contracts early on. The other bands who are tied to the label are those that were manufactured and made up of street punk hacks that didn't know what they were doing, hadn't even finished school, and signed shitty contracts. The fact that the article makes no effort to distinguish between the smart, talented musicians in the scene and the total tools is to their discredit for sure. But I don't think it's a contradiction.

The report comes from 2008. He should have been able to fix those inconsistencies by now. Besides you shouldn't have to make up reasons for why it should make sense. It should be evident in the report itself.

Not only that but the explanation you give changes the premise of the article. His initial claim is that the whole industry is corrupt. For what you said to be true that would mean that only some of the industry is really under control. Not to mention he says the labels don't need contracts.

First of all – sometimes the contract is that THERE IS NO CONTRACT. Nothing is written. Like in the under-world. You don’t sign something that says, “I will pay you Tuesday for 4 kilos of heroin today.” You don’t put things on paper. There’s no need. If someone violates, everyone in that world knows about it, and that person is blacklisted from the industry.

He claims that artists are kept in control through black listing so even if their isn't a contract the artists have no choice but to do what the label says.
 

faith

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I don't really get all this talk about deceit and deception and cuckoldry and missing fingers...

But I truly believe Dada didn't bother shaving before running around in his thong.
Because he is god.

Though I'm not sure what he had to do with anything in the article
 

VKHistorian

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faith wrote:
Though I'm not sure what he had to do with anything in the article

Nothing it seems. Which raises another point, actually:

Something I noticed was that 'Mr. Satoh' kept name-dropping, but the bands he was mentioning were from- all over the place, really. He kept going on about Extasy and Free-Will and how they were secretly controlling everything, but he also briefly talked about Malice Mizer and Kuroyume, who were both tied to Columbia- an entirely different label which doesn't seem in any way related to Free-Will or any of it's subsets.

So where exactly did this guy work? Unless he had multiple jobs at the same time or was very, very high up in the system, I can't quite work out how he can talk about 'the industry' in general as opposed to just his label.
 

flowersofnight

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I also wanted to mention:
Mr Satoh wrote:
You don’t sign something that says, “I will pay you Tuesday for 4 kilos of heroin today.”
What kind of Japanese guy drops oblique references to 1920s Popeye comic strips? XD
 

Berserk

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dogfight wrote:
Actually, it doesn't. The pseudonym is just a reason for why the blogger doesn’t have to name his source. By using an unnamed source he can make up any lie and pretend its from an ”industry insider”. That’s the reason why you don’t trust an anonymous source it can’t be verified. Verifiability is far more important than plausibility.
The stuff Mr. Satoh is saying doesn't do anyone in the scene any favors, yet we can assume that he still is a part of the scene, so anonymity makes sense for him. He's willing to talk about the scene's ugly side, but he doesn't want to burn his own bridges. Simple. You don't actually know that "it's just a reason for why the blogger doesn't have to name his source."

As for me contradicting myself--I never said that Mr. Satoh needs a pseudonym because what he's discussing is dangerous, so I did not contradict myself at all. He needs it for political reasons. If people within the scene knew he was saying this, he'd be screwing his own career.
The report comes from 2008. He should have been able to fix those inconsistencies by now. Besides you shouldn't have to make up reasons for why it should make sense. It should be evident in the report itself.
I'm not arguing that it's well-written, just that it doesn't contradict itself when you read between the lines.
Not only that but the explanation you give changes the premise of the article. His initial claim is that the whole industry is corrupt. For what you said to be true that would mean that only some of the industry is really under control.
So? I don't think anyone here is taking his word as textbook. We already know that his account only comprises a portion of the scene.
He claims that artists are kept in control through black listing so even if their isn't a contract the artists have no choice but to do what the label says.
Okay.

EDIT:
flowersofnight wrote:
What kind of Japanese guy drops oblique references to 1920s Popeye comic strips? XD
Probably the most damning observation right there XD

I think there were more Americanisms and English idioms than just that, but I'm not going to read through the whole thing again to find them.
 

VKHistorian

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Berserk wrote:
The stuff Mr. Satoh is saying doesn't do anyone in the scene any favors, yet we can assume that he still is a part of the scene, so anonymity makes sense for him. He's willing to talk about the scene's ugly side, but he doesn't want to burn his own bridges. Simple. You don't actually know that "it's just a reason for why the blogger doesn't have to name his source."

Plausibility to one side (and you do have a point there), the trouble with entirely anonymous accounts, where there is no real name, no photo, no precise details about the speaker- is that there is no proof at all that the speaker is who they claim to be. Any given Anon could be completely bona fide, but they could also be an internet conspiracy kook, or an elaborate liar, or someone with an agenda, or someone who isn't as experienced as they make out. They could even be a totally fictional character and nobody would be any the wiser.

If you don't have the faintest idea who's talking then it's probably best to take what they say with a pinch of salt at the very least. [/i]
 

VKHistorian

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@Flowers and Berserk

TDR wrote:
When I translated Satoh’s words, I translated them using idioms I myself would use – i.e. my own voice. This made it sound like I was talking with myself and not a real interview. This was an especially dumb mistake, because I routinely do fake, satirical “interviews” in the same exact style. My bad! Point taken, won’t happen again.

Could explain Popeye.
 

faith

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Yeah. I wouldn't put much into the word selection. Translation is translation.

I'm kinda on the fence about all this - but I don't wanna automatically write all of it off.
I remember 4 or 5 years back a certain forum member wrote that Tatsuya from Blam Honey was dead because she was friends with the blamodork crowd and they told her, and Amassanin like, hazed her or something (bless her goffy PMS doomsoul).
As you all know now, turns out he WAS dead.

So while I imagine the person being interviewed may have been stretching the truth, or some of this may not be 100% accurate, I'll still give it a chance with a grain of salt and take what I will from it.
 

Berserk

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@That TDR quote: Well that's a surprisingly believable explanation. I really thought we got him there XD
 

Elec

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There seems to be some doubt pertaining to indie bands simply selling a 'license' to major labels, but I can attest to that fact myself. My very own management-mates Dolly are still managed by Fuji Production, as even a cursory glance at the Fuji Pro website will attest to, but their music is released by Universal. Also, when I filmed Ascendead Master with Versailles, there were no Warner people there--it was all the same Sherow people I'd met countless times.

On the other hand, though, I also doubt what this fella has to say about Kamijo. There's no doubt that he was a Malice roadie, as he's on DVD with Gackt talking about that very same fact, and there's also no question (or strangeness) that Kamijo's own band was decidedly Malice-like in inspiration. However, when I was at the point when Chemical was trying to decide on a jimusho to join, he told me that the best thing to do was to make your own with your own money as best you can so you don't have to be beheld to anyone. It was good advice but it wasn't something we could realistically do so we went with Fuji Pro, but I don't see why he would have given such advice if things are the way the article claimed.

And that's what I'm saying. Even though I am a musician and I want to be paid, there is no reason for us to make a personal dime unless the companies that lend us money to make records and costumes and stuff get their investment back. Any things that we do ourselves--picture sales and other merchandise--go into the private band fund, which is ours, and if it we made enough through merch and shows I guess we could pay ourselves out of that. (One member is in control of that account but we all have access to the statements and receipts at all time so all are accountable.)

I can account for the Anti-Fans. Our vocalist left his previous band under tenuous circumstances, but we all make mistakes when we're young and we grow. That growth isn't always apparent to outsiders, however, so there are quite a few bored and mean girls who have nothing better to do than talk smack about him. I know many band dudes who are initially very open with fans but have been burned quite a lot by them, so on the whole we are quite wary. This may be interpreted as aloofness sometimes, but we're just trying to stay safe.

To gather male fans in the Japanese VK scene is like trying to turn lead into gold, and is often interpreted as true legitimacy. Dir en grey, Despa, and especially Versailles definitely seemed to be taken more seriously once gender ratios at shows started to even out. It sounds sexist but yeah; I think the female fans keep male tendency to prove their hardcoreness in check, and male fans keep fangirling in check.
I guess it's because it's hard and lonely being a male fan of a minor VK band in Japan. We have a handful, including a kindergarten teacher (!), and it takes a certain kind of bravery to be the only guy at a small CD-shop event in the midst of dozens of girls who will not pay attention to you that day so long as the band is in the room.

The most ludicrous claim to me is that there are ghost-writers infiltrating every single aspect of a band's creative output. Maybe this has been the case at the highest levels a long time ago, but looking around me, so many of these guys are working their butts off, learning home recording, and pouring out a high volume of ideas. The few times we in the scene have heard wind of ghost-writers or air-guitaring over a backing track in a live show, we actively sneer. It's ludicrous.

I dunno. I guess at the end of the day, I think most bands and labels that do well, bar a few, have a finger on the pulse of the market and realize that there really is a formula for a sure-fire selling band image or song structure. And when I look at the bands we play with, I'm like "that's an exact clone of a gazette song", or "kuroyume has that exact melody", and I get frustrated at the immense response that band has. But the hard-working, actually talented groups are working hard. It's just hard to get a chance.


And finally for now, I think that anyone who thinks that most of these problems are unique to Japan are fooling themselves. Japan is not a different planet, its people are not a separate species from us. The cultural differences may seem alien but if you think about it they're rooted in a lot of the basic things we all deal with.

In another thread, some seemed surprised that when Japanese people don't give an outright 'no', they're saying 'no'... but how many times have you yourself told an overbearing acquaintance, "Don't call me, I'll call you"?
That particular problem I think stems from speaking a language not your native one, and trying just hard enough to understand and be understood, and losing sight of the nuances of basic conversation. Everything becomes a 1-to-1 struggle and that falls outside our textbook learning, so shades of meaning lose their relevance.


i appear to be talking about anything and everything, sorry
 

MissUMana

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Elec wrote:
Japan is not a different planet, its people are not a separate species from us. The cultural differences may seem alien but if you think about it they're rooted in a lot of the basic things we all deal with.

In another thread, some seemed surprised that when Japanese people don't give an outright 'no', they're saying 'no'... but how many times have you yourself told an overbearing acquaintance, "Don't call me, I'll call you"?
That particular problem I think stems from speaking a language not your native one, and trying just hard enough to understand and be understood, and losing sight of the nuances of basic conversation. Everything becomes a 1-to-1 struggle and that falls outside our textbook learning, so shades of meaning lose their relevance.

All of this I am perfectly aware of. It's just that the Japanese in general (of course there are exceptions) make absolutely no effort at learning and speaking foreign languages and walking not perhaps half but at least part of the way towards people from a different culture, as if only theirs was worthwhile, and this does seem rude and arrogant to most of us. They are who want us to think we are not the same species and never will be. Even if they don't really think so, they tend to give us the impression we are less than they are, or too dumb to understand their culture and idiosyncrasies. We have a lot of Japanese tourists visiting here and I seriously wonder at what they think of us people. A few months ago there was this group of students with a girl guide obviously making very funny comments about the medieval street they were walking, and this man teacher a little on the side who must have thought I was a loonie because I couldn't help betraying I was very amused at the scene. How undignified. To tell you the truth, I enjoy horrifying them by overdoing it a little. ;)
 

Elec

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MissUMana wrote:
All of this I am perfectly aware of. It's just that the Japanese in general (of course there are exceptions) make absolutely no effort at learning and speaking foreign languages and walking not perhaps half but at least part of the way towards people from a different culture, as if only theirs was worthwhile, and this does seem rude and arrogant to most of us.

I have not lived in the States for years, but while I lived there this was an American attitude as well, whenever Americans go overseas for any length of time. I have also encountered this attitude amongst polyglot Europeans in Japan. I know people who have lived here for more than 5 or even 10 years who have not made any effort to learn Japanese and take great umbrage at the fact that the vast majority of Japanese do not communicate in English with any degree of ability.

I just want to make clear that yeah, they're pretty prideful about themselves and their nation. So are most people I meet, from all over--Americans, French, Brits, etc. But various factors make it not exactly realistic for many Japanese to make extended stays outside of Japan.

In my college days I often worked with Study-Abroad students from all over the world. The Japanese students that clustered together and spoke only Japanese exclusively bothered me tremendously, as they relied solely on us other Japanese speakers and rarely attempted English communication, despite our efforts. Those that did saw massive improvement in social situations and education.

We have a lot of Japanese tourists visiting here and I seriously wonder at what they think of us people. A few months ago there was this group of students with a girl guide obviously making very funny comments about the medieval street they were walking, and this man teacher a little on the side who must have thought I was a loonie because I couldn't help betraying I was very amused at the scene. How undignified. To tell you the truth, I enjoy horrifying them by overdoing it a little. ;)

Groups of Japanese people on vacation can be safely ignored and dismissed; they are interested in nothing more than the very thin surface of the land they are currently in and will never do anything more adventurous in their lives than ride the airplane that brought them there. This does not make them any different than Chinese tourists, American tourists, or European tourists. I am willing to guess that only the fact that they are not of Caucasian descent makes them stick out so much in the Western conscious.

(That said, when I lived in California we often saw tour buses stop, Japanese people step out near the start of great hiking trails, take pictures, get back on the bus, and roll off.)


wait what were we talking about again
 

Geisha

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Actually, Kamijo didn't change labels 4 times. I'm not an expert on Lareine history, but looking at my CDs he went from LA-REINE to Applause, to SME/Sony, back to Applause, to Sherow and now Warner. Apart from SME and Warner all the labels were run by him, so if SME and Warner were licensed then he never left his own label, except for New Sodmy (?). Which proves that he is indeed smart and talented enough to run his own company, as does the advice he gave to Elec.

I also agree that the claim that he manufactured the bands on his label(s) is ludicrous. Metis Gretel already had the same sound and look before they signed with him and their reincarnation, Megaromania, has a very similar sound and look, despite being on UNDER CODE. As for the Malice Mizer influence, yes, Kamijo was a MM roadie and Lareine was somewhat inspired and Versailles borrows heavily from MM, but none of the other bands sounded anything like MM.

That said, according to the article his links with "the family" are relatively recent. Around 2007 Sherow switched its CD distribution to Free Will (can't remember where I read that, but you can see it on CD Japan) and their fortunes did pick up since then. Versailles really took off after they performed at the Hide Memorial Summit (together with Phantasmagoria, Dir en grey and many other bands connected to Free Will, Yoshiki or Kisaki) and they gained a lot of new (male) fans from this exposure. Perhaps they wouldn't have been invited if they didn't have ties with Free Will; at the very least it didn't hurt. On the other hand, Lareine collaborated a lot with Phantasmagoria but still struggled, so who knows.

With regards to Malice Mizer, I agree as well that they were far too unique to be manufactured. Besides, like Lareine, they had their own label right from the beginning, so they would have had to manufacture themselves. When they first started out they were a bunch of weirdo nobodies with a sound and image that promised little mass appeal, so I doubt they would have looked attractive to someone looking for a nice easy cash cow. They probably looked more like a band you would not want to bet your money on.

I guess the bottom line is that, if you lack the talent, business sense or determination to make it on your own, or want to fast-track your career, you can sell your soul to someone like "the family", but that isn't the only option. There are too many bands that don't fit this pattern.
 

Dogfight

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VKHistorian wrote:
Berserk wrote:
The stuff Mr. Satoh is saying doesn't do anyone in the scene any favors, yet we can assume that he still is a part of the scene, so anonymity makes sense for him. He's willing to talk about the scene's ugly side, but he doesn't want to burn his own bridges. Simple. You don't actually know that "it's just a reason for why the blogger doesn't have to name his source."

Plausibility to one side (and you do have a point there), the trouble with entirely anonymous accounts, where there is no real name, no photo, no precise details about the speaker- is that there is no proof at all that the speaker is who they claim to be. Any given Anon could be completely bona fide, but they could also be an internet conspiracy kook, or an elaborate liar, or someone with an agenda, or someone who isn't as experienced as they make out. They could even be a totally fictional character and nobody would be any the wiser.

If you don't have the faintest idea who's talking then it's probably best to take what they say with a pinch of salt at the very least. [/i]

Thank you. This is what I've been trying to explain.

@Elec

My problem with what he says isn't about indies licensing to majors but that he initially claims that indies are all shadow owned by majors.

SATOH-SAN: They (the top 3 guys) have the right to start as many record labels as they want, as long as everyone in ‘the family’ knows who owns what. And if you want to avoid taxes, you just go bankrupt! The label suddenly vanishes . . .and soon you start another one!Together, they got the whole country! By giving, I suppose ‘licences’ (if I can call it like that) to other musicians to start their own small labels (which are secretly tied to the main guys), they can do much more business than with 3 big, slow-moving labels.
Every band has one smart guy who, after a few years, wants to actually make some money. And because of his band, he has contacts with all the major musicians, businesspeople, roadies, managers. . . so he decides to leave his band and start his own label.

TDR: What do you mean by licenses?

SATOH-SAN: Well, the band guy comes to one of the ‘parent label’ guys (Extasy / Free Will or whoever) and asks permission. Permission means that the big Visual labels won’t shut down his small label – they WON’T go to a retailer or live house and say, ‘If you do business with this guy, you can’t do business with any of our acts.’

But to get permission, the little label has to promote and host all the parent label’s acts in its little region. Also it has to send a portion of its revenue directly to the parent label, in the form of interest on start-up loans.

TDR: Does the band guy put up his own money to start the little label, or get money from the big label?

SATOH-SAN: Both! You put up some of your own money, and borrow the rest. But there is never –never! A point where you have paid off the debt to the major guy. You will always be his employee, even if it looks like you run your on label. Also, all the publishing rights for the music go directly to the parent label!

Here he basically claims that all labels have to be shadow owned by a major or they will be black listed.

He even includes a graphic linking Kamijo as affiliates to D-Tommy and Yoshiki.

http://www.hellodamage.com/top/wp-conte ... ualbig.jpg

Then near the end he changes his story and says.

SATOH-SAN: It’s not like in the West, where the band leaves the indie label and signs to Warner Brothers, or whatever. The indie sells a LICENCE to the major. They sell the major the right to release one or two records by the band . So the indie still owns the band – they still manage the band, but they get major advertising and major distribution. They get money up front, so the major takes all the financial risk. Of course they have to split the cost of advertising with the major, but since they’ll sell many more records, it’s worth it!

He's telling two different stories. In the begging he claims that all the labels are owned by the same three majors, and no one can start a separate new label without being black listed. Then half way through hes saying indie labels have control over there own bands and Major labels have to buy licenses from indies.To me he seems to be telling a bunch of half truths, exaggerated to the point that they can't coexist without contradicting each other.

p.s Also anti-fan isn't just a vk thing. Korean pop anti-fans make vk anti-fans look nice by comparison.

http://asianfanatics.net/forum/topic/30 ... anti-fans/
 

Geisha

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Dogfight wrote:
Here he basically claims that all labels have to be shadow owned by a major or they will be black listed.
I think by "main guys" he means Yoshiki, Dynamite Tommy and Kisaki, i.e. "the big Visual labels". Not major labels like Warner or Sony.

He even includes a graphic linking Kamijo as affiliates to D-Tommy and Yoshiki.

http://www.hellodamage.com/top/wp-conte ... ualbig.jpg
Well, by signing the distribution deal with Free Will ("recently connected to Free Will with SAS") he is connected to them. Doesn't mean that anything else the guy says about him is true; some of it is clearly rubbish.
 

Dogfight

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Geisha wrote:
Dogfight wrote:
Here he basically claims that all labels have to be shadow owned by a major or they will be black listed.
I think by "main guys" he means Yoshiki, Dynamite Tommy and Kisaki, i.e. "the big Visual labels". Not major labels like Warner or Sony.

He even includes a graphic linking Kamijo as affiliates to D-Tommy and Yoshiki.

http://www.hellodamage.com/top/wp-conte ... ualbig.jpg
Well, by signing the distribution deal with Free Will ("recently connected to Free Will with SAS") he is connected to them. Doesn't mean that anything else the guy says about him is true; some of it is clearly rubbish.

Except, he claims Yoshiki owns the majors as well.

Yes, of course! Fully. They always work together, since day one. ’85, ‘86. Yoshiki’s companies include major labels, not just visual labels, and he also has the Japanese license for bands like, say, Queen or other international rock acts. But since Yoshiki started as the drummer for X Japan, the inventors of ‘visual rock’, he’s always going to keep that as part of his empire.
 

MissUMana

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@Elec : my problem is and always will be that I always travelled alone, so I never was a tourist in the usual sense of the word. I had no one to speak French with, and that suited me perfectly. I was mostly interested in discovering what the people and the lifestyle were like.
 
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