Films and TV - What are you watching?

[Iskanderia]

I don't think she shows that much skin or maybe I just don't notice it. I suppose she has lots of sex, but it's not as if you really see much of it as much perhaps because the story isn't as centered on it as much anymore. And the scenes are usually quick and sometimes funny. I've seen her boobs and butt, but that's not really out of this world.

No, it's certainly not scandalous but she shows a lot more skin and has a lot more sex than she did on Doctor Who (in which she did neither whatsoever, as it's supposed to be a family-friendly[ish] show), so I imagine a lot of nerdy male (and female) Who fans were excited to see her involved in Sexy Times on this show (which they previously had to rely on only their own imaginations and fan art for). It would have been smart of them to market this show as "Rose Tyler as you've never seen her before!" (Especially because Doctor Who has some particularly creepy-ass fans).

I saw the episode with the disabled son and recall thinking it was sort of sweet and I'm always all for messages about how stupid cosmetic surgery is and how you should learn to like yourself the way you are rather than go through a painful and dangerous major surgery in which your body is cut open and plastic parts are shoved into it. For a show about prostitution, it manages to convey a valuable message about that (because that's always a valuable message, IMO).

[*Long, off-topic rant about cosmetic surgery deleted*]

 

[PureElegance]

I saw the episode with the disabled son and recall thinking it was sort of sweet and I'm always all for messages about how stupid cosmetic surgery is and how you should learn to like yourself the way you are rather than go through a painful and dangerous major surgery in which your body is cut open and plastic parts are shoved into it. For a show about prostitution, it manages to convey a valuable message about that (because that's always a valuable message, IMO).

[*Long, off-topic rant about cosmetic surgery deleted*]

Don't even get me started, I completely agree! Last week Cerceaux was attempting to convert me to the dark side of this issue by extolling the virtues of nose jobs. People say, "It makes them feel better about themselves," but I don't think simply changing your physical self solves the fundamental issues and the underlying reasons for why you don't love yourself the way you are. It's not enough that people are starving themselves to look like models or to conform to some standard, now they resort to surgery to change themselves permanently. I don't think the lack of self-love can be fixed in that way.

(note: this doesn't apply to fat people, and I mean fat people, who won't exercise because they say they're beautiful the way they are)

Anyways, in the episode Hannah/Belle was feeling self-conscious because of her breasts since they were kind of long. The plastic surgeon's assistant even asked her meanly if she had children and she and the surgeon kept bugging her about her breasts. In the end though Hannah/Belle thought that her breasts were natural and perhaps the only natural thing left of Hannah, which would always be Hannah's, so she can't get rid of them. That's how I feel about myself and my imperfections so I liked the episode.

I'd write more but right now I have a date with a Mr. McDonald's.

 

[Cerceaux]

notgonnatakethebaitnotgonnatakethebaitnotgonnatakethebaitnotgonnatakethebaitnotgonnatakethebaitnotgonnatakethebait

 

[Iskanderia]

I think big noses are cute. They give your face character. I always think about Jennifer Gray, who became boring-looking and 50% less attractive after her nose job.

 

[PureElegance]

I think big noses are cute. They give your face character. I always think about Jennifer Gray, who became boring-looking and 50% less attractive after her nose job.

Not related to nose jobs (which Cerceaux advocates for with all her strength), and I agree with you, but I just searched for half an hour for this quote that I loved:

"I'm not very good at just opening up or sharing. I'm a very private person."
"I'm not asking you to tell me things, to divulge your innermost. I mean, Jesus, who really knows everything about anyone? Why would you really want to?"
"Do you really believe that?"
"I do."

This doctor named Alex that Hannah/Belle was actually dating told her that, and I think it's so true! No, seriously, someone first told me this along these lines in high school about marriage (but you can apply it to any sort of relationship) and it's stayed with me ever since and I think the idea of it is just so... I don't know. Romantic? Fascinating? I really don't want to know everything about a person. It may sound silly, but I want to spend my life always learning about someone like my husband.

Yes, I find nerdy things like this and "conversation" and "reading books together" and "playing video games together" romantic
Sorry, I just love it when things I think about that I don't really share with anyone are repeated back to me in these ways.

Haven't had time to watch more episodes, I'll definitely watch some more in a few minutes XD I left off on a shocking note, so I can't wait!

 

[Iskanderia]

Remember when I tried to make a deal with you that I would read Fifty Shades of Gray if you watched the (only six hours long) first season of the BBC's Sherlock but you said you don't like watching TV series?

(I'm kinda glad you didn't take me up on it though. I read the first 20 pages or so and I hated it almost immediately. Anna's childish behavior was instantly insufferable.)

Also, I was thinking earlier about how funny and kinda good the first couple seasons of Sex and the City were and what a shame it is that you've only seen the movies because I've heard the movies are really shitty in comparison.

 

[PureElegance]

Remember when I tried to make a deal with you that I would read Fifty Shades of Gray if you watched the (only six hours long) first season of the BBC's Sherlock but you said you don't like watching TV series?

LOL well if Sherlock was on Youtube then I'd try it out! Secret Diary of a Call Girl is completely on Youtube (which I'm on all the time), so it's easy for me to see it.

Then again for some reason I don't think I'm interested in Sherlock, but I don't know. The only reason I checked out Secret Diary of a Call Girl was because my friend was telling me about it and posting quotes from final episodes of the show, which I really liked, on tumblr. I'm looking forward to the ending!

(I'm kinda glad you didn't take me up on it though. I read the first 20 pages or so and I hated it almost immediately. Anna's childish behavior was instantly insufferable.)

Ana*

Also, I was thinking earlier about how funny and kinda good the first couple seasons of Sex and the City were and what a shame it is that you've only seen the movies because I've heard the movies are really shitty in comparison.

I saw some more of the later episodes and they were pretty good and intense. The second movie is horrendous (I hate it FOREVER AND EVER BUT I WATCH IT ANYWAY), but I think the first movie is really good. The movies should've ended with the first, the second was obviously for the money and ruined what could have been a good ending for the series.

I really liked the first one, not only because I liked how deep their friendship proved to be, but because I got so angry at Mr. Big and I can't believe he could've done that to her! Seriously! He is the biggest pig ever for that. Yes he redeems himself (and was a good guy in the second movie), but that scene where he goes, "Carrie! Carrie! I'm ready now!.... Carrie I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I'm sorry! Carrie wait I'm sorry!" after all that--I JUST WANTED TO EXPLODE I can't believe he'd think that an "I'm sorry" was just going to fix everything. So he's ready NOW? AFTER HE PUT HER THROUGH MISERY AND HUMILIATION, "NOW" HE'S READY TO BE WITH HER?!

I love Charlotte's reaction. The best and worst scene in this movie. I cried, not really because of Carrie but because of Charlotte's reaction. Anyone with a best friend whose heart has been broken, or who's been humiliated knows how difficult it also is on the friends. Its up to us to help our friend heal a broken heart, and at times a broken spirit.

I teared up in the theatre watching this scene. Carrie has never lashed out at Big like that and Charolette was so good with the way she looked at Big. The look said it all.

I still get chills - Charlotte is a amazing friend!

Her reaction was brilliant *wails* Perhaps it's also because Charlotte rarely ever gets mad, was always silly and ladylike, and she was always pulling for Big and Carrie. Seriously, as much as I don't like Carrie, I felt so sorry for her. The girls went on the honeymoon trip with Carrie and Carrie would stay inside her room and cry in the dark, she was never happy even when going out, but her friends were always there for her! I think that's amazing. At one point one of the girls was feeding Carrie because she wouldn't eat and I totally understand. (I also loved it when Charlotte ran into Big later and was like, "I don't want to see you! I'm so mad at you! I was always on your side and you go and you do that to Carrie! No! No! I'm not going to cry! I'm not going to waste tears on you!")

I'm watching the scene and I'm getting upset again, this always happens

 

[flowersofnight]

Just heard about this documentary which I want to see:
Ikland
About some people who go and film the Ik tribe made famous in "The Mountain People". I'll pick it up next time I have enough stuff in my Amazon cart ::kisaki::

 

[Iskanderia]

Edit: ^^^That looks really interesting, Flowers. You'll have to let us know how it is.

@PE: My idea for the deal was that we would each read or watch something that we think we wouldn't like because it's not our usual type of thing and maybe end up being pleasantly surprised. It was about being open-minded and trying something new.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you to watch Sherlock, but I just want to say that I'm not a fan of mysteries and I don't really care about the classic Sherlock Holmes character (the movies with Robert Downey, Jr. were a lot of fun but that was because of RDJ's awesomeness) but I love this show because it's about a lot more than some super smart dude solving murder mysteries. It's first and foremost a story about friendship. It's at the same time hilarious and poignant and it's not at all dull like those dusty old tomes written way back when.

I wouldn't normally recommend it for you though because you seem to tend to like love stories and the romance subplot doesn't start until the second season (unless you're like the rest of the internet and consider the friendship between Sherlock and Watson to be about unrequited love).



Speaking of stepping outside of my comfort zone and trying things I wouldn't normally be into: I watched Princess Mononoke last weekend and have Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle in my Netflix queue.

I didn't like it. Neither did my husband. I went into it open-minded, trying to ignore my predjudice against animated film and TV (particularly when it's from Japan) and tendency to write it all off as being for kids and manchildren but it's really hard for me to take a movie with talking cartoon animals seriously (What's this? The noble, forest dwellers have their homes and lives threatened by mean ol' evil humans?! What a twist! How deep! How unique!)

It clearly wasn't for little kids but it wasn't exactly adult either (I think it would be perfect for a 13 year-old girl or an emotionally stunted 36 year-old male virgin who lives at home with his parents). It's not like I'm the most mature woman in the world who can only enjoy super serious stuff for grownups, but talking animals and corny anime humor is more than I can handle. I can see adults liking this movie if it's due to nostalgia because they loved it as a kid, but I don't know what's wrong with my 34 year-old friend who recommended this movie to us) also, I'm a little offended that she apparently knows us so little that she actually thought it would be up our alley).

Hopefully I'll be more impressed with the other movies.

 

[flowersofnight]

but it's really hard for me to take a movie with talking cartoon animals seriously (What's this? The noble, forest dwellers have their homes and lives threatened by mean ol' evil humans?! What a twist! How deep! How unique!)

Well, compared to "FernGully" it was Shakespeare XD
I saw the movie back when it was new-ish but it didn't make a huge impression on me, other than that it was kind of novel to see a "High Art" anime.

my predjudice against animated film and TV (particularly when it's from Japan) and tendency to write it all off as being for kids and manchildren

Well let's be real here, it is XD Some of it's good anyway - but none lately.

 

[Cerceaux]

Iska, you could give Perfect Blue a try. Ghibli movies are good, but they're family films and basically the anime equivalent of Disney which you don't seem to like. Perfect Blue is a very adult psychological thriller and similar thematically to Black Swan which it predates by 10+ years.

I'd also recommend the series Monster but it's 74 episodes long which is probably more time than you're willing to devote to something in a medium you dislike. Anyway Monster is cool because it takes place in Europe, there's only one Japanese character, no humor, and is pretty much like watching a live-action series that just happens to be animated. It's completely free of tiresome anime tropes (and because of this it flopped in the US despite receiving extremely positive reviews and running on TV for a while). It's on Hulu if you want to just check out the first few episodes though.

But as much as I want to be like "how can anyone not like cartoons?!" I get that some people just don't like certain things regardless of the quality. It's probably how other people feel when I refuse to watch Pixar movies because of my hatred of CGI. I'm sure Pixar movies are well made but I just hate watching them and I don't care about talking toys with feelings.

 

[PureElegance]

@PE: My idea for the deal was that we would each read or watch something that we think we wouldn't like because it's not our usual type of thing and maybe end up being pleasantly surprised. It was about being open-minded and trying something new.

Lol, for me it's not about "trying something new," but I can't commit to series in general. I couldn't even commit to Avatar: The Last Airbender and that's one of my favorite series ever. I still haven't seen the Fire Nation episodes and even though it still bothers me (I still think about it), I don't have the urge to sit down and watch them. I'm already having trouble keeping up with Secret Diary of a Call Girl even though it's on Youtube, I like it, and it's in ten minute chunks.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of patience to sit through all the episodes, that I can live without TV, or an ability to lose interest in long series I move on kind of easily XD I can't even think of a series that I liked that held me throughout the entire show; Avatar was the only one I think that almost had me. But I like friendship stories so the Sherlock plot you mentioned sounds nice!

It's different for reality shows though. I can watch "The Real Housewives of Miami" weekly and I make SURE I am on time to see it. My favorite show is "Shark Tank," which I also make sure I'm home in time for, because I love businesses, new ideas to invest in, and the negotiation process.

I wouldn't normally recommend it for you though because you seem to tend to like love stories and the romance subplot doesn't start until the second season (unless you're like the rest of the internet and consider the friendship between Sherlock and Watson to be about unrequited love).

I don't like love stories by themselves or if they're the main focus, what I love are the personalities. I don't think I've been a fan of "love stories" in general and that's not why I like Disney movies or other things. For example, I love Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean not because of his love story, but the way he was continually tortured by Calypso's abandonment to the point that he turns into a monster literally and figuratively. He's one of my favorite people because of how tortured and suffering he is and I love the symbolism behind him cutting out his heart and burying it on an island along with all her letters. My second favorite Disney movie, "The Hunchback of Notre Dame," I love Frollo for how realistically evil he is. He's not trying to take over the world, he's just this tortured old man battling his inner demons and the fact that he lusts over Esmeralda who's a gypsy, and he hates gypsies because for him they represent all that is bad with human nature. He also sincerely thinks he's doing the work of God by persecuting the gypsies and I think that is the most interesting thing.

The reason I've come to love "Pocahontas" lately is for the ending. Last year I saw a clip of the ending after not seeing the movie in years, and it was so beautiful that it made me appreciate the entire movie more as well as the love story, which I previously didn't think about at all. I still admire Pocahontas for choosing her people over John and her emotion as she's running to the cliff to say a final goodbye sends chills up my spine. It's the music and her face as she's breathing heavy after she waves, it kills me. I don't even know what I'd do at that point, I can't believe she made that decision.

I like "Beauty and the Beast" not because Beast and Belle are adorable together, but because of Beast's transformation since it proves that he is capable of love. For me the movie is more about forgiveness and giving people chances to change. I love that Beast gave Belle a library, but it's not that he gave her a gift, but that he knew Belle's love for books as opposed to Gaston who didn't want her to read at all. He was the first person to really understand what she wanted in life and who she was. That was really meaningful to me!

I guess what I'm saying is that I do like romance sometimes but when it's meaningful and part of a grander story. Usually I find it kind of corny and overly dramatic if it's by itself and the main focus. In "Peach Blossom Fan," the basic plot centered around a love story, but what made it interesting for me were the battles, heroic deaths of generals, and political intrigue it was in the middle of. "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" has hardly any romance at all, it's mainly about politics and friendship/loyalty, and it's my number one favorite book ever and the reason why I'm in China and the reason I even ended up on the forum XD

My favorite movies are normally foreign (Asian/European/Middle Eastern) or animated movies in general. I never talk about them here though.

Speaking of stepping outside of my comfort zone and trying things I wouldn't normally be into: I watched Princess Mononoke last weekend and have Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle in my Netflix queue.

I didn't like it. Neither did my husband. I went into it open-minded, trying to ignore my predjudice against animated film and TV (particularly when it's from Japan) and tendency to write it all off as being for kids and manchildren but it's really hard for me to take a movie with talking cartoon animals seriously (What's this? The noble, forest dwellers have their homes and lives threatened by mean ol' evil humans?! What a twist! How deep! How unique!)

I wonder why you saw that one since it's my least favorite one It's forgettable, but I remember not loving it. Your friend is weird, gosh. I saw Howl's Moving Castle, Spirited Away, Kiki's Delivery Service, Castle in the Sky, My Neighbor Totoro, Princess Mononoke, Whisper of the Heart, and I don't remember what else.

The one I'd recommend for you is Spirited Away since it's not a romantic or funny movie (lol) and the art is amazing. I love the story and music *sigh* Maybe another one would be Howl's Moving Castle and My Neighbor Totoro. My Neighbor Totoro is more adventure-ish and it's a simple, somewhat slow-moving story about imagination, innocence, and death. Maybe you can see it to try to understand why it's so popular because here Totoro is all over the place. Howl's Moving Castle is seriously romantic IMO, but an adventure story and don't even get me started on how I love Calcifer. But I think HMC, you'd be confused on what it's about so it's really up to your interpretation. I'm not even sure how to describe HMC because it's so strange. What I was talking about in the Random Thread some time ago was only about one 1 minute scene XD

Oh, "Grave of the Fireflies," HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommended for an animated film. This one you need to see. It's not Hayao Miyazaki, but it was produced by Studio Ghibli and is unlike anything you've seen (it's not very family-oriented, bright, or cheerful like some of their other movies). I was kind of upset for a while after seeing it. You can kind of tell when a movie is by Hayao Miyazaki or not, haha. "Whisper of the Heart," which wasn't by him, is really different and simple compared to the rest of the Studio Ghibli movies and has nothing fantasy-related.

It's probably how other people feel when I refuse to watch Pixar movies because of my hatred of CGI. I'm sure Pixar movies are well made but I just hate watching them and I don't care about talking toys with feelings.

You scare me. Seriously, with the nose jobs, the million comments about your packages, and now this, you're freaking me out.

 

[Iskanderia]

I agree with her there. It's not that I hate animation on its own (I like a lot of the Adult Swim shows and South Park) but I can't take talking toys with feelings (or things like that).

I think my problem with family oriented stuff is that I've seen so much adult oriented TV and movies about adult problems (and have experienced so much), that it's hard for me to care about a talking animal's issues. It's hard to go from Breaking Bad to Beauty and the Beast. (Also, come on. I'm 36 years-old. I know God damned well that's not how love actually works.)

 

[PureElegance]

I agree with her there. It's not that I hate animation on its own (I like a lot of the Adult Swim shows and South Park) but I can't take talking toys with feelings (or things like that).

I think my problem with family oriented stuff is that I've seen so much adult oriented TV and movies about adult problems (and have experienced so much), that it's hard for me to care about a talking animal's issues. It's hard to go from Breaking Bad to Beauty and the Beast. (Also, come on. I'm 36 years-old. I know God damned well that's not how love actually works.)

No one gives a hoot! Cerceaux is kind of excommunicated for a while. I remember when she first told me she didn't like Pixar movies because of the CG (that's her main reason, she doesn't like the type of animation), I was like, shocked. Completely shocked. I love 2D animation, but 3D animation as well so I don't understand. I recommend "Grave of the Fireflies" for you though. Maybe even "Hunchback of Notre Dame" since Frollo is amazing, the music is amazing and I love choirs, but there will be a few "made for children" parts you don't like (if they had taken those out it would've been a completely serious movie), but it's generally known as the darkest and most risque Disney movie, and that's why it isn't as popular. A lot of the stuff Frollo did and said went over my head many years ago, but now I realize how cruel and uh, tortured, lustful, etc he was and I love it. He definitely has to be the most fascinating character in a Disney movie for me, and his song "Hellfire" was just perfection and chilling.

I donno, as for me I've always had a mix of adult stuff and family stuff since I was little because we watched whatever we wanted and so did I on my own. (It's funny since I hardly watch TV now except for maybe 3 shows) I'm not sure if I prefer either over the other, but I think Disney and Pixar movies in general are amazing for its imagination and the music, I wish I could be part of something so grand and make generations of people happy in such a way.

As for Beauty and the Beast, since I was little I always thought I could relate to Belle (especially when she's speaking to her father at the beginning and when she's running in the field after Gaston's proposal). My mom said that when I first saw it (when I was 3 or so) I cried while smiling at the Beast's transformation because I was so happy-- I doubt I was even that aware what was going on but I was really affected by his transformation. (my mom said it's one of her earliest memories of me, haha!)

I think I'll always have that movie close to my heart and to be honest it really has affected the way I see people and life. I don't think book and movies should completely influence you, but Beauty and the Beast (and ROT3K) has followed me over the years and affected me deeply. Not only because I relate to Belle on different levels and what I said in my earlier post, but it helped make me always think the best of people and try to find the good in them even if they hurt me or if they're generally angry or negative.

 

[flowersofnight]

Maybe even "Hunchback of Notre Dame"

Psh, no one wants to watch movies about hunchbacks with feelings.

 

[Iskanderia]

More accurately, I don't want to watch hunchbacks sing about their feelings.

Edit: we watched Spirited Away last night and we both agreed that it was much better than Princess Monoke. The creatures were more cute than annoying and there was enough weirdness to it to keep me interested. Also, unlike Disney, there was no damned singing, so that's a plus. (I don't like musicals in general so animated musicals are a special kind of hell to me).

 

[PureElegance]

More accurately, I don't want to watch hunchbacks sing about their feelings.

Edit: we watched Spirited Away last night and we both agreed that it was much better than Princess Monoke. The creatures were more cute than annoying and there was enough weirdness to it to keep me interested. Also, unlike Disney, there was no damned singing, so that's a plus. (I don't like musicals in general so animated musicals are a special kind of hell to me).

OMG I love music I donno, I love Tom Hulce's voice. What I don't understand is the need for "funny animals." I watched Pocahontas 2 and that had to be the worst in terms of making animals do stupid things to be funny. I saw it with my mom and she was all, "If I have to see that raccoon eat something again I SWEAR I'LL--" But that's part of the fun, to see how awful it is.

I'm not sure why they think kids will laugh at that sort of thing... It's so stupid. I usually don't mind the side characters, but in Pocahontas 2 it was really overdone. I know it's a sequel and those are usually dumb to begin with, but it was really, really overdone this time. For example, in Cinderella there were the mice, but those were in no way overbearing and they were pretty endearing. In the first Pocahontas, Meeko and Percy were nearly at "annoying," but managed to stay in the OK zone for me.

I agree about Princess Mononoke, I thought the plot was kind of corny. HMC though, the plot was kind of/sort of all over the place, but that kept it interesting for me so I can use my imagination to fill in the gaps. One of my friends here in Shanghai said that I should read the book to fill in the gaps, lose the confusion, and to know more about Howl, but why would I want to? I love how strange they all are and make me wonder.

Also, Turnip Head has to be one of the best side characters even though he didn't speak a word throughout the entire movie. One of my other favorite scenes was Sophie finishing up the laundry, hanging it by the lake with Turnip Head holding it up, then sitting by Star Lake. The music and rays of light shining through the grey clouds and hitting the water, oh my God! That was always my number one favorite scene in the movie.

Meanwhile: Cerceaux JUST told me she never saw My Neighbor Totoro. Omg. Omg. XD *hyperventilating here*

Unrelated, but I was watching another episode of Secret Diary and Hannah/Belle, Bambi the Aspiring Prostitute, and some fat weird guy were having a threesome to Donna Summer's "Love to Love You Baby." I thought it was funny since I listen to that song every day, and the day I saw that episode I had listened to it all day. I love listening to it while walking to class, while studying, etc.

 

[Cerceaux]

I like the songs in classic Disney movies, but I don't really like any other musicals and you'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to watch Glee.

I dunno, I don't remember Princess Mononoke being "corny" but whatever. It's also the only Disney/Ghibli movie to land a PG-13 rating due to the violence. I thought the way it didn't demonize one side of the conflict was interesting. The humans and the animals are both just doing their best to survive and they both have good reasons for doing what they do. There's no clear villain which is something you never see in a Disney movie.
Howl's Moving Castle... Excellent first...2/3 or so, but then they try to cram like 3 extra confusing subplots in and Miyazaki has to kill the mood and have a random war in it so he can not-so-subtly preach about the evils of war because WAR IS STUPID AND THEY'RE ALL MURDERERS. The second half isn't a dealbreaker for me but definitely killed its chances at an Oscar.
Excellent English dub too, with Jean Simmons as old Sophie.

 

[PureElegance]

I like the songs in classic Disney movies, but I don't really like any other musicals and you'd have to hold a gun to my head to get me to watch Glee.

Same here. I think the few exceptions are "Phantom of the Opera" and "Follies," but usually I find musicals kind of corny. I also can't handle Glee.

I dunno, I don't remember Princess Mononoke being "corny" but whatever. It's also the only Disney/Ghibli movie to land a PG-13 rating due to the violence. I thought the way it didn't demonize one side of the conflict was interesting. The humans and the animals are both just doing their best to survive and they both have good reasons for doing what they do. There's no clear villain which is something you never see in a Disney movie.

I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember my mom falling asleep and I was thinking it was corny/boring.

Lilo and Stitch definitely didn't have a clear villain which is why I love it. The movie leads you to at first think certain people might be the villains, but you realize that they aren't and I thought that was so interesting. One of them is a social worker who is "just doing his job," and you end up not thinking him as a villain at all, and it's the same for the other characters.

To be honest I also don't think Gaston from Beauty and the Beast was a clear villain, at least he didn't start off that way. He was pompous and a pig for sure, but it was only towards the ending that he was driven by jealousy to lead the villagers to attack Beast's castle. It's kind of a shame that he turned that way because of Belle's rejection because I don't think he was actually really that bad. At least not when compared to Frollo, Ursula, and Scar. Gaston's problem was his jealousy which is something everyone deals with at some point, he just went over the edge because of his pride.

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/19143/gaston-disney’s-most-unconventional-villain
Here's a great article about Gaston!

Only towards the end does Gaston tread towards the usual villain look and feel, but the fact that we’ve followed his progression to that point is important. His showdown with the Beast on the tower at the end is driven by the fact that they both love, in different ways, the same person. And as a consequence, it matters.

It also completes the about turn of the film, too. Earlier on, it’s the Beast who is positioned as antagonist (lest we forget, he has his own collection of comedy sidekicks, to match up to Le Fou).

In fact, more than that, the Beast does exactly the same nasty thing as Gaston: they not only have in common that they both long to be with Belle, they also both happened to have imprisoned her father, against his will.

I find it interesting that they have that same act in common, and yet the film goes on to shed very different lights on their actions – Belle can forgive why one of them did it, but not the other.

Both the Beast and Gaston are driven by insecurities that eventually manifest themselves in very different ways. By the end, they’ve firmly swapped places, and the film doesn’t cheat on the path to that happening at all.

... does The Emperor's New Groove count in this too? The "villains" in that were hilarious.

Howl's Moving Castle... Excellent first...2/3 or so, but then they try to cram like 3 extra confusing subplots in and Miyazaki has to kill the mood and have a random war in it so he can not-so-subtly preach about the evils of war because WAR IS STUPID AND THEY'RE ALL MURDERERS. The second half isn't a dealbreaker for me but definitely killed its chances at an Oscar.

I don't get it though, the war was the setting for the entire movie. Aren't they having a rally for it at the beginning and sending off the troops and ships and you find out about the missing prince? I didn't see it as random, especially since you find out what Howl's been doing when he disappears during the day and why he has his aliases. Pretty much most of what he does is because of the war. I guess I also didn't see it as preachy too much, but I see what you mean. I forgot what scene you're thinking of, but I remember getting that feeling at some point, but it didn't last and definitely didn't take over the whole movie for me. What are the three extra subplots you're talking about?

I think the more confusing part to me was the whole Howl-Jenkins-Pendragon and Madame Suliman. I understood that she was trying to get Howl to become one of the wizard fighters, but I thought her and Howl's relationship was weird. I guess I understand, but their relationship still seemed mysterious to me. I remember not understanding the Calcifer/Howl's heart thing for a while though XD

What I focused on during the movie were Howl and Sophie's problems. Sophie's were the obvious curse, but also her self-esteem issues. Howl was also under a type of weird spell with that whole Calcifer issue, was losing his humanity more and more, his cowardice, etc.

Excellent English dub too, with Jean Simmons as old Sophie.

I loved Lauren Bacall as the Witch of the Waste.

 

[Cerceaux]

^I meant like (highlight quote to read spoilers)

The weird time travel element, the war/prince/turniphead, the Madam Suliman stuff, it was just too much going on at once and took the focus away from Sophie and her curse.

It's not bad to have a multilayered plot, but it got really jumbled. And the thing with the war is, it's not well-developed, it's just like...there. The first time I watched the movie I didn't even realize what the cause was; it was only on a second viewing that I heard the one line uttered by a background character near the beginning about the kidnapped prince being what started the conflict. I guess for something that does play such a large role in the second half of the film, the conflict should have been fleshed out a little better, but instead it's this watered-down "silly humans with their guns and bombs, when will they ever learn?" thing.
That's just my opinion though, if you weren't bothered by it then that's good.

Best part is the stair scene, oh man. Who knew two fat old ladies and a dog climbing a staircase could be so entertaining?

Oh but Gaston is SUCH a villain dude. xD I agree he's a little more interesting than some of the Disney villains because he's more like a closed-minded jerk than some evil sorcerer cackling at his own evil, but he's definitely the "bad guy" in that movie.