Mana overrated

[Elec]

I'm with Kazuo; and I refuse to have my opinion of Mana categorized by a black-and-white like/dislike. There are things I like about him/his work, things I dislike, and things I loathe. What these things are exactly can't be described without me writing a detailed outline on everything he's done, which, hell, I'd like to do, but that would take too long. I think his most rabid fans overrate him; I think his worst detractors are being a tad harsh.

I also don't understand the automatic dichotomy about liking Gackt or Dir en grey, thusly hating Mana, or vice versa. Guess what, *gasp* Gackt and Dir en grey are probably the top two artists on my j-list; figure that out. I don't like turning my opinions into sound bites so I won't say he's "overrated" in so many (so little?) words, but I don't see why I can't be a casual fan. I'll get crap from his disciples because I don't see some big, grandiose vision that isn't there, and I get crap for showing any interest in him at all, so whatever. I remind y'all of what I said about the "Dir en grey live in US" thread. :-*

 

[Geisha]

Alot of the people that I talk to just think that Mana is.. Erm, well, weird. They are "afraid" I suppose, of the way he dresses, and they think that his music is bizarre.

It's the cycle that always repeats itself. People flock to iconoclastic ideas in order to show off how cool and with-it they are. This is how it always happens. Mana? He's SO last week; all the cool kids have already outgrown him and moved on to something MUCH more sophisticated. Maybe one day you'll get with the program too.

I think it is a combination of both. And look at the arguments: he's pathetic because he shaved K's eyebrows off? Wow, that's a really valid reason (and it's especially funny since it refers to a picture in the FC magazine, so apparently they hate him but they still hunt down pics from the FC mag ).

I also don't understand the automatic dichotomy about liking Gackt or Dir en grey, thusly hating Mana, or vice versa.

I hear that all the time. It is one of the silliest "arguments" I can imagine but it seems to be very common.

I find people to hate Mana alot.....and I sort of understand why. I mean, it's been said alot that he should stop prancing around and pick up his guitar, which I sort of agree with. Though it's sort of nature for him to prance around because he's a visual artist, and that's what visual artists do......they put on a show.

That was true of him in MM but not in M10M.

Other than that, I think Mana will always polarise opinions because he is so OTT. Unfortunately, a lot of the time neither haters nor fangirls bother to try and find out what's underneath the surface.

 

[KK]

People flock to iconoclastic ideas in order to show off how cool and with-it they are. This is how it always happens.

I'm so glad that was said

 

[Jursie]

I don't mind if people dislike something, as long as they come up with perfectly GOOD and VALID reasons for doing so. Saying that Mana's clothing style and/or his music is "wierd" is just not good enough to fly in my boat.

People who generally have one-lined (or few words) to say about why they dislike something are not terribly informed about the subject, in most cases. Therefore, they have a dislike for it because of what either a) other people have told them, b) because they don't have a personal interest themselves and want to put the subject down, or c) they had an interest in the subject, but it got "too popular" for them.

I am more willing to listen to opinions that are well-thought out and well-informed, rather than opinions that start with "OMG insert something here."

To address the Gackt and Dir en Grey = dislike of Mana and vice versa, I think that's wrong. Reasons have already been stated earlier in this thread. Hell, I like all three.

 

[Wandering_Fox]

Eh, people can think what they want. I stopped caring a LONG time ago about what people thought about the musical artists/movies/fine artists that I liked. The funny thing is, I didn't know so many people hated Gackt until I came here. But they're free to dislike him as long as I'm free to like him, so it all balences out =)

 

[MasterKHS]

I just recently got into Malice Mizer/Moi dix Mois (may of this year) and come from a place where stuff like them isnt very common. Howver so far most people i have listen to the cds are quite intrigued and end up buying the albums... Coming here has taught me alot more but thats besides the point...

Ive tended to notice a few reactions (from a person thats new to the J-rock Vis/Kei scene) some have already been mentioned.

Some people are hooked the instant they hear their fist song...(thats me) and a few otheres, but a few ive noticed that lean twards not liking.. which kinda dissapoints me not liking it simply becuase its in a diffent language, or becuase of what vis/kei represents in a sence that usually its guys that look like girls.. and in my opinion are the 2 lamest excuses ive ever heard...

 

[Herr Doktor Knave]

my response to this thread and every thread like it is and will always be a resounding "who cares?"

so some poeple don't like mana... so mana may not be extremly popular.... who really gives a shit? you like mana for the reasons you like him, and that realy should be enough, other people not liking him shouldn't concern you in the slightest.

for 5 years now, I've been one in a very large group of friends who even has a passing intrest in visual kei or music from japan, all my other friends think I'm crazy for listening to it, but I couldn't possibly care less, and you shouldn't either, it will make you a much happier person.

 

[Katurine]

Aaaaand,... Mana? PLAIN?

They don't have any eyes, apparently.

Yep,seems so...if Mana's plain,then I'm saint...and I'm surely not.

...Then again,I'm very obsessed with him and I get that "Leave him alone!" reaction when someone insults him.

 

[MasterKHS]

my response to this thread and every thread like it is and will always be a resounding "who cares?".

Well like all things in life... people like and dislike, but think honestly if no one cared.. what would there be to talk about. (taking this a step oustide this particular subject and it can apply to just about anything) Yes i know its a little out of context but its quite true.

 

[Herr Doktor Knave]

well what i mean is, who cares of someone doesn't like something you like, or if you don't like something they like? does it really have to be a problem? differences in opinion are what make the world an interesting place ot live, and it's not worth getting bent out of shape because someone may have harsh opinions about something as trivial as liking or not liking a band.

I have harsh opinions of a lot of bands out there, but no one cares, and they shouldn't.

 

[MasterKHS]

well what i mean is, who cares of someone doesn't like something you like, or if you don't like something they like? does it really have to be a problem? differences in opinion are what make the world an interesting place ot live, and it's not worth getting bent out of shape because someone may have harsh opinions about something as trivial as liking or not liking a band.

I have harsh opinions of a lot of bands out there, but no one cares, and they shouldn't.

I totally agree..

discussing and getting bent out of shape are 2 totally diffent things. And as far as getting bent out of shape... well i think you summed it up quite nicely.

 

[sailorKa]

"OMG! He is so pathetic! Like shaving the guys eye-brows off..."
"Mana? He is so pathetic! How can you think highly of him!..."
"Mana and his clothes style is so over-rated, he's so plane, he's lost it..."

Okay. Insulting him cause he shaved K's eyebrows off is just hilarious. It was MEANT to be a hilarious story, and it is. I can't see anything pathetic about it o_o Maybe they're using that word too lightly.

Um...I have absolutely NO Idea as to what is this "he shaved someone's eyebrows, liek ZOMG!" so I'm going to assume it's from a madousho release. IF this person thinks Mana is sooo pathetic, why would they pay 100$ to recieve 'crap' from a 'pathetic artist'?

THAT, is how I would deem someone as truly 'pathetic' if we're using such harsh words. When they dedicate their whole existance to proving how ridiculous something is. It's like joining an "Anti-internet" BBS... It's completely nonsense. Even if it's stuff I don't like (like..."Anti-Avril" pages) I find it stupid that someone takes so much time of their life and dedicates it specially to that one thing they 'hate the most'. Why not make a page about something you actually like?

And personally, I didn't know either gackt was unpopular. My näive little mind is still convinced that this only happens in Scape, since to me Gackt like..ZOMG POPULAR!:0...
...Same with Miyavi（笑）...I seriously thought NO ONE even disliked Miyavi, until I saw so many people here talking bad about him.
...And Full, I thought everyone liked Guniw Tools and that they were really popular. Turns out, it's slightly easier to find, let's say, Malice Mizer fans than Guniw Tools fans.

...and I'm too lazy to say my point of view on Mana by now. Let's just say I really do love him..^^

--k

 

[UAShenlong]

I was speaking to a group of people (well a fair few groups of people to be a bit more precise >.<) and on asking them about Mana they all had comments to say

"OMG! He is so pathetic! Like shaving the guys eye-brows off..."
"Mana? He is so pathetic! How can you think highly of him!..."
"Mana and his clothes style is so over-rated, he's so plane, he's lost it..."

Stuff like that. Am I missing something, when did Mana become unpopular? And what has he done to be so hated?

(not sure if this should be offtopic)

First off, I speak as a musician and a composer myself.

Alot of people, and I myself, dont like Mana because alot of Mana's songs are snippets that are taken from Classical pieces - he didn't actually compose most of the music - he just arranged it. He made this quite obvious in "BAROQUE" and quite intentional by using Beethoven's "Fur Elise" and Mozart's "Rondo Alla Turca" in another song... I forget which. As Mana progresses in time, he steals musical ideas from lesser known Classical pieces. I used to listen to alot of Bach (I almost had 50% of all his compositions until I had to reformat) along with Beethoven, Chopin and other Classical composers and I too reckognize alot of "Mana's" musical ideas - mainly from the time when I was listenning to Classical music. Its either he intentionally knew that he was stealing musical ideas from some of the greatest composers of all time OR The musical ideas must have subconsciously entered his mind upon the time of "composition" - This is not an uncommon phenomena amongst composers - I know because whenever I freestyle to try and come up with something, I end up producing a song I have allready heard before. Mana basically used the genius of others to get rich and alot of fame out of popular Japanese culture. Moi Dix Mois is even worse - every song sounds the almost the same and I was informed by a friend that one of MDM's songs was a complete replicate of one of Chopin's pieces (I forgot which. Sorry). Its a cheap trick but thats what you get when you compose tonal music. See thats the thing about tonality - when a composer chooses to compose using tonal theory, the composer can only repeat musical ideas which have allready been thought of before - it will never be original idea because every tonal musical idea has been thought of allready. There exists nothing new - its all just a repeat. This is most evident in punk bands like Green Day who play the same boring cliche I-IV-V-IV-I chord progression through out every song. Yet why does it sell? Because that is the nature of tonal music. The V chord pulls you to the I chord (ii, IV, VII as well, if you want to get technical). The composer does not allow himself/herself any freedom. When a composer chooses to compose tonal music, he/she sacrifices individuality and originality. This is one of the reasons, why I like atonal music. Atonal music such as Bela Bartok (Considered by many the Beethoven of the 20th Century), and Henry Cowell (Who invented a completely new way of playing the piano by getting inside and attacking the strings with different parts of his body and making music out of it). Atonality, It gives me alot more freedom as a composer and awhile atonality isn't ment to sound good like tonality, "what sounds good" is really in the ears of the listenner. However, there is no real market for atonal music, the composer sacrifices fame and money. Only elitist modern garde/minimalists/modernists with university music majors would invest in such a thing. Anyway I am getting carried away with this. Back to Mana, this is one of the reasons why people dislike Mana, along with other reasons that were stated earlier in this thread.

As a musician and composer myself, I would hate to be Mana. I see what Mana has done as having lack of integrity and respect for those he has stole from.

But the music, regardless of who wrote it, still sounds good in my opinion and I think thats all that matters in the end.

I guess you can say I am a semi-elitist. I side with both you guys and elitist friends with music majors.

 

[Katurine]

*read the whole thing*
Ouch...x_x *faints*

 

[UAShenlong]

I'll tell you guys what. I'll start listenning to Classical music again and if I find a piece that Mana could have stolen, I will post it here and let you guys decide how "original" Mana is.

 

[Katurine]

Hm...I don't believe it's necessary.It's not like he will stop using classical music for his songs,I guess.Besides, nowadays a lot of people use classical music or do covers of older songs and noone really seems to have problem with that.Well,maybe some people(like myself,when I saw Blog 27's clip for example)walk around grumbling for some time,but that would be all.Who will forbid Mana using classical music for his songs?Beethoven himself?Sure,it isn't that great to use something that was written already before instead of composing own piece of music,but every coin has two sides.At least classical music isn't completely forgotten.
Sorry,I might have trailed off a bit^^;

 

[Geisha]

Moi Dix Mois is even worse - every song sounds the almost the same

Vestige and The Prophet sound the same? Riiiight.

 

[Bagt]

Well, as you said, every tonal musical idea has been thought of already, then nothing is original, it doesn't exist an original artist or band. We can die now.

I love Mana's music, maybe he's not very original or creative, but i think he makes music like nobody and that's why i think he's original. I don't believe he's stealing music from the greatest composers of all time (they had the opportunity to create wonderful music because they born in a era of discoveries). I like to think that Mana is just too thankful with those genius that he likes to add something in his music, like "Beethoven, you inspired me to this". But hey, if he is stealing music, then everybody is stealing music right now. What a crap! xD.

And he is NOT stealing music. Stealing music is copy all the whole song and tell everybody that it's yours. That's stolen music, and Mana doesn't do that.

And hey! give him a break, he doesn't add a classical piece on every song!!



Edit: Oh, and why if you don't like Mana and think Moi dix Mois is terrible, you have them in your page like one of your favorite bands?

I just can't understand.

 

[Eresjkigal]

Alot of people, and I myself, dont like Mana because alot of Mana's songs are snippets that are taken from Classical pieces - he didn't actually compose most of the music - he just arranged it. He made this quite obvious in "BAROQUE" and quite intentional by using Beethoven's "Fur Elise" and Mozart's "Rondo Alla Turca" in another song... I forget which. As Mana progresses in time, he steals musical ideas from lesser known Classical pieces. I used to listen to alot of Bach (I almost had 50% of all his compositions until I had to reformat) along with Beethoven, Chopin and other Classical composers and I too reckognize alot of "Mana's" musical ideas - mainly from the time when I was listenning to Classical music. Its either he intentionally knew that he was stealing musical ideas from some of the greatest composers of all time OR The musical ideas must have subconsciously entered his mind upon the time of "composition" - This is not an uncommon phenomena amongst composers - I know because whenever I freestyle to try and come up with something, I end up producing a song I have allready heard before. Mana basically used the genius of others to get rich and alot of fame out of popular Japanese culture.

that's what i call "influence"... and i don't believe any human who sais he/she isn't influenced by anyone else at all, because that's impossible unless you've been locked away since you were born and never had any contact with the outside world.

 

[Taya]

I think, some of those who hate Mana don't even know that his music sounds similar to Bach, Beethoven, etc. (^^").

Well, I didn't like Mana until I got to draw a picture of him xD.
And even now, I don't like him as much as I like Juka or Klaha.
But I respect him and I hope he will stay the same for the next years.

I love his music, even if he got inspired/influenced by Bach/who ever,
I mean, it would be really boring nowadays , if everybody would listen to music like Hip Hop,
just because nobody wanted to revive the old classical music.

~
I'm a Dir en grey fan.
But now I dislike Die, because he said that wearing ribbons in the hair is weird -_-". <- Just a joke ^_^.
And sorry for my bad grammar ^^".