Vegetarians/Aquatarians/Omnivores/Vegans

[Garnet in the Eden]

Yeah, I think elephants and lions are aware of when their young or someone from the group dies.

I suppose that's why the mothers defend their offspring so much, to keep them from dying. If they weren't aware then they wouldn't care. Its motherly instinct.

Exactly.

 

[navate]

scientifically, they're unaware of what it means to die and what it means to live.

If you're trying to say animals don't ponder the existence of life like humans do... honestly that's a pretty open debate, and one that science cannot answer at this time.

But consider all the behavioral discoveries we have made about animals that put them much closer to humans than previously thought. They possess individual personalities, like people. They can engage in deviant (nonreproductive) sexuality, just like people do. They will go to war, just like people do. All of these things, not too long ago, were thought to be strictly human qualities. If science has proven anything, it's proven that we're a lot closer than we'd like to think to animals. How close remains to be seen.

If you're trying to say animals literally don't know what it is to die and live, I think you're incredibly wrong on that. Animals sense death and illness in ways humans can't. Animals fight for survival, protect their young, detect and avoid or eliminate threats. They form families and friendships and seek love and attention just like people do; they can become depressed if they are deprived of these relationships--including when one of their kind dies. It may not be a grand moral understanding but I think the question of awareness is not disputable.

 

[Halvorc]

 

[Berserk]

If you're trying to say animals literally don't know what it is to die and live, I think you're incredibly wrong on that. Animals sense death and illness in ways humans can't. Animals fight for survival, protect their young, detect and avoid or eliminate threats. They form families and friendships and seek love and attention just like people do; they can become depressed if they are deprived of these relationships--including when one of their kind dies. It may not be a grand moral understanding but I think the question of awareness is not disputable.

I think in this case the definition of "awareness" is where the hairs are being split. One could say, as Amatsu has, that animals only do all of those things because they have the instinct to--not because they actually intellectualize the concepts and understand them, which would be "awareness" of them.

But on the same token, couldn't you say that intellectualizing the concepts is only a linguistic extension of our instincts, and that in that way animals and humans really aren't separated fundementally in their understanding of life and death?

And then you have to ask: does it really matter?

 

[navate]

Yeah, I think I said that. I don't know if he was implying an abstract understanding or a simple awareness, but either way his statement is false. If you're talking about simple awareness and, to a degree, conceptualization, it HAS been scientifically proven than animals do these things (make strategic decisions, learn from experiences, fight to preserve bonds and avoid danger, which lead to death, and feel the affects of death of those nearby.) The other thing he could have been referring to is whether or not animals can reason abstractly. And that, as you pointed out, is something that is confined to linguistics. It's an open question that can't be scientifically proved or disproved at this time since we cannot communicate with animals on that kind of level, and also because it begs the question of how accurate it is to judge animal's cognitive abilities next to our own.

 

[Halvorc]

 

[Berserk]

Where does instinct come from ?

Natural selection.

 

[Antaeus]

^WINNER.

You don't see lions emoing over people they ate!

For the record, we're the only animals aware of mortality, other animals don't understand the concept of death or life.

I think animals understand the concept of death and life better than most humans do.

scientifically, they're unaware of what it means to die and what it means to live.

proof it. I agree with navate here.

Animals are aware of the meaning of death. Why would a fly try to escape when I try to kill it? Because it senses danger. Danger is a situation that is threatening. A situation can only be threatening if they know about death. I don't see any other reason why the fly would be afraid to die.

I said that slightly to see what you would say, and because I mostly share that opinion. If humans would really know what it means to live and to die, then why do we waste most of our lives with gathering knowledge and working? It doesn't matter what kind of knowledge we gather, what kind of things we accomplish in our lives, because eventually there is death that will end everything. No matter what you did in your life.

Animals realise this much better and live more according to their primary needs. Reproduction, food and sleeping. They "know" they only live temporarily, and the only thing they can do is do things that need to be done. Which is, reproduction, survival and creating an offspring.

Where does instinct come from ?

Natural selection.

Nah it doesn't. Instict is partly genetic(and yes, genes are decided by natural selection, but only indirectly). Instinct makes animals and humans aware of the situation around them, and tell them how to behave in these situations without giving it any thought. Natural selection is simply a selection process of genes. Genes with certain properties are popular, and reach it to the offspring. While other genes' properties aren't popular at all, and will not reach the offspring.

 

[Garnet in the Eden]

Humans have been scientifically proven to be the only animals aware of life and death.

I just want to know where you got this from.

 

[flowersofnight]

Animals are aware of the meaning of death. Why would a fly try to escape when I try to kill it? Because it senses danger. Danger is a situation that is threatening. A situation can only be threatening if they know about death. I don't see any other reason why the fly would be afraid to die.

Lower animals like flies are pretty much automatons. They avoid dangerous situations because their "program" of instincts directs certain responses to certain stimuli. They don't have to know what death is for this - it just so happens that over the past millions of years, the flies that flew around when they felt or saw a certain thing (and thereby avoided getting swatted) survived and passed on their instincts, whereas the flies that sat there and died didn't.

 

[sailorKa]

it just so happens that over the past millions of years, the flies that flew around when they felt or saw a certain thing (and thereby avoided getting swatted) survived and passed on their instincts, whereas the flies that sat there and died didn't.

That sounds a lot like Jack London's "Before Adam". It said that we dream of falling into an abyss all the time because of our tree-hanging ancestors but that we always wake up before hitting the "ground" because only the ones that took hold of some branch before breaking their necks are the ones that survived & passed on the memory and the genes unto the next generations.

If humans would really know what it means to live and to die, then why do we waste most of our lives with gathering knowledge and working? It doesn't matter what kind of knowledge we gather, what kind of things we accomplish in our lives, because eventually there is death that will end everything. No matter what you did in your life.

Because we have more conscience than animals. I think that exactly BECAUSE we know that we live & die, we want to make as much as we can of the time we have in this earth so we can make "life" (and sometimes death) easier for the people who'll live long after we do.
I don't think a bear is more aware of his mortality because he fornicates, hunts, hibernates, fornicates, hunts, hibernates, till the end of time(all while we frolick around big cities, building skyscrapers). XDDD


--k

 

[Antaeus]

Animals are aware of the meaning of death. Why would a fly try to escape when I try to kill it? Because it senses danger. Danger is a situation that is threatening. A situation can only be threatening if they know about death. I don't see any other reason why the fly would be afraid to die.

Lower animals like flies are pretty much automatons. They avoid dangerous situations because their "program" of instincts directs certain responses to certain stimuli. They don't have to know what death is for this - it just so happens that over the past millions of years, the flies that flew around when they felt or saw a certain thing (and thereby avoided getting swatted) survived and passed on their instincts, whereas the flies that sat there and died didn't.

Isn't it exactly the same for humans? If there would be a gigantic hand that tried to kill me then I would also try to run away. The sense of danger isn't unique for flies. Every living organism experience this. In my opinion, the theory that "lower" animals are only guided by their instincts is a bit fishy. There is even natural selection between flies. Flies with certain eye colours and shape of wings have a larger offspring. This is the main reason why certain flies survived. It isn't the instinct that made the fly survive, but the physical health and the quickness of its brains that made them survive. You may call it instinct, but I think instinct is too broad. I do think the fly is aware of the hand, its reaction and the danger. It isn't just instinct that made the fly survive. Perhaps a bit controversial, but we can apply exact the same theory on humans and every other living organism.

Because we have more conscience than animals. I think that exactly BECAUSE we know that we live & die, we want to make as much as we can of the time we have in this earth so we can make "life" (and sometimes death) easier for the people who'll live long after we do.
I don't think a bear is more aware of his mortality because he fornicates, hunts, hibernates, fornicates, hunts, hibernates, till the end of time(all while we frolick around big cities, building skyscrapers). XDDD
--k

You missed the point. We do have to enjoy life, but is it necessary to obtain knowledge?(as in, first get educated and after that having a job till you are too old to work?). I don't think many of us experience education, and jobs as a pleasant experience, but it is still a big part of our lives. Why? After we die it all ends, so..why? Animals who are unaware of all those needs and simply do what they enjoy the most(in your words, "fornicates(let's call it reproduction, shall we? ), hunts and hibernates") have a more enjoyable life.

And actually, we could only really answer this question if we know the meaning of life(and please, don't answer 42 here ) The only logical conclusion to me is that there is no meaning. Because of that, we just have to enjoy life to the fulliest till we die.

 

[navate]

Animals are aware of the meaning of death. Why would a fly try to escape when I try to kill it? Because it senses danger. Danger is a situation that is threatening. A situation can only be threatening if they know about death. I don't see any other reason why the fly would be afraid to die.

Lower animals like flies are pretty much automatons. They avoid dangerous situations because their "program" of instincts directs certain responses to certain stimuli. They don't have to know what death is for this - it just so happens that over the past millions of years, the flies that flew around when they felt or saw a certain thing (and thereby avoided getting swatted) survived and passed on their instincts, whereas the flies that sat there and died didn't.

Isn't it exactly the same for humans? If there would be a gigantic hand that tried to kill me then I would also try to run away. The sense of danger isn't unique for flies. Every living organism experience this. In my opinion, the theory that "lower" animals are only guided by their instincts is a bit fishy. There is even natural selection between flies. Flies with certain eye colours and shape of wings have a larger offspring. This is the main reason why certain flies survived. It isn't the instinct that made the fly survive, but the physical health and the quickness of its brains that made them survive. You may call it instinct, but I think instinct is too broad. I do think the fly is aware of the hand, its reaction and the danger. It isn't just instinct that made the fly survive. Perhaps a bit controversial, but we can apply exact the same theory on humans and every other living organism.

I should probably let Flowers answer because he could clarify better. But eh.

You are right that it is not instinct that makes flies with better eye or wings more adept at avoiding danger. This is because instinct is behavioral, and things like wing structure are genetic. Every organism has genetic diversity. Biology depends on it and it doesn’t speak for any level of sophistication or awareness in an organism. You can’t really compare the two.

Behavior does reflect awareness and sophistication, and that’s where instinct and automation come in. Even in higher animals, there are instincts that are “inborn” without being learned. There was a famous experiment done with baby chickens, dealing with their reaction to the shadow of a bird of prey. They never learn to fear the hawk’s shadow—how could they? Risking it would lead to death, and that would get the species nowhere. Somehow they are just born with the understanding that it’s dangerous. That’s an instinct. Now, there might be a stubborn or stupid baby chicken that doesn’t heed the instinct… and gets eaten. The higher up you go on the animal hierarchy, the more independence from instinct you find, and more reasoning and strategy. And the lower you go, the more automation you find. A fly doesn't "fear" death. It's just programmed, through millions of years of evolution, to move when it senses a dark shape moving near it.

 

[Amatsu]

the reason animals avoid danger is so they can reproduce, it's instinct, it's not because they understand or contemplate the concept of dying. it's just instictively knowing that danger can prevent you from reproducing to keep your species in the food chain. I'd give a source for my claims, but I saw a few programs about it on the science channel and I don't remember what they were called, since that and the national geographic channel are like the only channels I watch.

Why are humans different? because we evolved differently. I can't remember in full detail but the first change in apes when evolving into humans was standing up, which for some reasons I can't remember right now, including how our spines go into the bottom of our skulls (where as apes spines go into the back of their head), it made our brains bigger and more capible of conplex thought.

This is what I learned at least...

Sorry for the lack of sources, but sources obviously don't matter, its not like anyone who is opposing what I said is giving sources, either. (even if they're asking them from me... )

 

[navate]

Sorry for the lack of sources, but sources obviously don't matter, its not like anyone who is opposing what I said is giving sources, either. (even if they're asking them from me... )

That's because before you insisted something was scientifically proven when, depending on what you were implying (which I am still not clear on), it either was impossible to scientifically prove or scientifically proven to the contrary.

And sources are important, but most of what I've said is stuff you'd find in any biology textbook. But I think people were asking you mostly because you sounded pretty lofty saying how scientific your opinion was, that's all.


About apes: you've got the jist correct. Our brain stem canal is larger than apes, but the actual structure/placement within the skull isn't terribly different.

BUT HEY CHECK THIS OUT:
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/com ... t-4a.shtml
It's a paper on the correlations of diet with brain evolution and development in primates and humans! I've un-derailed the thread, whohoo! ::kisaki::

 

[Antaeus]

I should probably let Flowers answer because he could clarify better. But eh.

You are right that it is not instinct that makes flies with better eye or wings more adept at avoiding danger. This is because instinct is behavioral, and things like wing structure are genetic. Every organism has genetic diversity. Biology depends on it and it doesn’t speak for any level of sophistication or awareness in an organism. You can’t really compare the two.

Behavior does reflect awareness and sophistication, and that’s where instinct and automation come in. Even in higher animals, there are instincts that are “inborn” without being learned. There was a famous experiment done with baby chickens, dealing with their reaction to the shadow of a bird of prey. They never learn to fear the hawk’s shadow—how could they? Risking it would lead to death, and that would get the species nowhere. Somehow they are just born with the understanding that it’s dangerous. That’s an instinct. Now, there might be a stubborn or stupid baby chicken that doesn’t heed the instinct… and gets eaten. The higher up you go on the animal hierarchy, the more independence from instinct you find, and more reasoning and strategy. And the lower you go, the more automation you find. A fly doesn't "fear" death. It's just programmed, through millions of years of evolution, to move when it senses a dark shape moving near it.

I agree entirely with you till the point you say that a fly doesn't fear death. You say a fly moves because its instinct tells the fly to move? Yes it does, but I think your and mine definition of an instinct is different. I see an instinct as a "first reaction", a biological response to respond quickly to danger. In my opinion, this didn't improve over time, or changed because of natural selection. This "protection system" is equal in any organism. I believe this because whether it is a fly, a human or an elephant, we all respond the same way when we are exposed to something that is dangerous. I just think the fly knows why it moves, and why it doesn't want to be hit by the hand(or any danger). Because the fly "knows" death is bad for it's existence. Flies, and other "lower" animals such as worms, can learn. I base it on that experiment that "lower" animals are more than instinctly programmed creatures.

 

[Halvorc]

 

[Amatsu]

Sorry for the lack of sources, but sources obviously don't matter, its not like anyone who is opposing what I said is giving sources, either. (even if they're asking them from me... )

That's because before you insisted something was scientifically proven when, depending on what you were implying (which I am still not clear on), it either was impossible to scientifically prove or scientifically proven to the contrary.

And sources are important, but most of what I've said is stuff you'd find in any biology textbook. But I think people were asking you mostly because you sounded pretty lofty saying how scientific your opinion was, that's all.


About apes: you've got the jist correct. Our brain stem canal is larger than apes, but the actual structure/placement within the skull isn't terribly different.

BUT HEY CHECK THIS OUT:
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/com ... t-4a.shtml
It's a paper on the correlations of diet with brain evolution and development in primates and humans! I've un-derailed the thread, whohoo! ::kisaki::

Why thank you for the article.

Also, I'm sorry about making it sound like that, It's just what I thought I learned to be an undeniable truth.

 

[flowersofnight]

I see an instinct as a "first reaction", a biological response to respond quickly to danger. In my opinion, this didn't improve over time, or changed because of natural selection. This "protection system" is equal in any organism.

But "danger" is different in every organism, and depends on the predators and natural hazards in the environment. For example, some moths have an instinctive response to flee when they pick up a bat's sonar (you can also trigger this yourself by jingling a key ring full of keys!). It's pretty evident that this is a highly specialized instinct that evolved in direct response to a specific predator. On the other hand, most animals wouldn't be bothered at all.

 

[Berserk]

Where does instinct come from ?

Natural selection.

Nah it doesn't. Instict is partly genetic(and yes, genes are decided by natural selection, but only indirectly). Instinct makes animals and humans aware of the situation around them, and tell them how to behave in these situations without giving it any thought.

I interpreted his question as meaning "From what is instinct created?", and I think "Natural Selection" is an appropriate answer.