Insanity is...?

[Gier]

Insanity is caused by bad blood. Also, severe psychosis can be traced back to too much pressure on the brain.

The best treatments would be bleeding and trepanning.

 

[faith]

And cuddling puppies.

 

[SwEeT_CaNdY]

Well, Law says that you re insane if you are unable to express your will properly. I think this is a way of determinating who is sane or not.

 

[Anonymous]

Ange - I know you didn't say that artist = insane. It didn't seem to me like you were saying anything actually, more like posing some questions. I thought I'd answer them with my own opinion being part of that dreaded 'society' after all, though granted not a representative sample of it.

And after rereading this thread, since flowers made me wonder if I had indeed missed the point somewhere, I believe what faith asked was precisely not what society thinks or sees, but what really makes you insane even if others are not aware of it.

but snapping at people is still an indication of social misconduct. I mean people with no outer indications.

 

[gwendel]

Re: Much Madness is divinest Sense-- Oh how I love it!!

The life of Van Gogh was very sad; I don't consider him a crazy person just because he cut off part of his ear...and strange acts of suicide are not acts of craziness either--especially if the depression and eventual suicide was due to something such as WWII, as in Virginia Woolf's case.

I've always been particularly interested in the life of Vincent Van Gogh, because I really love his art, and have always felt a great amount of pity for him that his life had to be so sad. I don't know if you'd be interested, but there's a book that is a compilation of his personal letters, translated to English. I can give you the ISBN if you're looking for some good reading.

If I were to speculate on this whole thing from a more emotional standpoint, a part of me has always been struggling with the question of whether I am personally a bit crazy or not too. Perhaps it's something that everyone deals with at one point or another, under certain circumstances or under a deal of emotional stress. I think that any person who has gone through extreme stress, or what they percieve as a particularly hopeless situation, probably has at one point wondered if they aren't losing their mind.

In particular, we are affected not only by the amount of exposure that we have to society or not (a person who spends less time in social interaction with other people is more likely to act abnormal when they do interact with other people simply from lack of experience), but our perceptions as to how people are and will treat us are affected by how we have been treated in the past in similar situations.

Let's say, for example, that in the past we have been cheated by someone else many times, or lied to. A person like that is likely to become very suspicious and less open to other people, and even if they feel they know a person reasonably well, they may find themselves testing them at every step of the way, or doing things that may appear irrational to the other person, because they have become paranoid. Is this paranoia insanity? If it carries on enough, could it make the person go insane worrying about things that probably don't even exist?

I think that in some ways, you can make yourself just a little bit crazy thinking too much about a particular thing and trying to puzzle it out in your head. As Klaha said once in his lyrics, "Reaching for the truth, is after all, ultimately making you confused by what is just on the surface, so..."

I've found myself coming to some rather wrong conclusions before, and inventing situations that didn't exist by thinking too hard about a problem with my relationships with other people. And I've let myself get very upset over some wrong conclusions because I worried about it too much. Maybe some people come to that point simply because they need to stop dwelling on their problem and focus on something else for a while, or for lack of a person to talk to a work it out with.

But, um, I'm not sure if I'm hitting the point we were trying to make here.... 6.6

 

[Herr Doktor Knave]

insantiy is performing the same task over and over and expecting different results

 

[Eresjkigal]

i still don't understand why so many people like van gogh's works... but that's just me i guess.

 

[Anonymous]

I think that any person who has gone through extreme stress, or what they percieve as a particularly hopeless situation, probably has at one point wondered if they aren't losing their mind.

Yes. But like LejuN and flowers said before, the fact that you are aware of a 'right' frame of mind probably means that you're not losing it. When you convince yourself that your 'wrong' frame of mind is the 'right' one is when you're probably in trouble. But you wouldn't know that at the time.

but our perceptions as to how people are and will treat us are affected by how we have been treated in the past in similar situations

But not all our knowledge comes from personal experience. I'm not referring to a priori knowledge or anything of the sort, just to a posteriori knowledge gained in different ways. So even if your particular experience is of a certain kind you should still be aware that other people's isn't. However, it's of course hard to break out of the emotional circle your own experience has put you in and look at things objectively, in any given situation. Especially if your own experience has caused a great deal of emotion. And this can work with both negative and positive emotions. We call someone 'brainless' or 'stupid' if they never expect something to go wrong because in their experience it never has. Maybe we should start calling people the same who think that nothing will ever go right just because that's what their own experience is... (<- that was directed at myself ;; )

As Klaha said once in his lyrics, "Reaching for the truth, is after all, ultimately making you confused by what is just on the surface, so..."

Or as another wise man put it 'everything is what it seems if you look deep enough tonight and see'. But you have to look first. I think this is a journey that not everyone can make, purely due to weakness, hence why most people reject it even while still in a subconscious level. Their mind refuses to let them venture into the territory even though they wouldn't know to tell you that they tried to in the first place. Those that do venture it might lose their minds in the process, but find the risk to be worth it because they value 'the truth' above anything. But there is a difference between a search for 'the truth' that a healthy mind makes, and the endless circles an unwell mind goes through thinking it's in fact progressing. I hope I'm making sense.

insantiy is performing the same task over and over and expecting different results

Yeah... exactly. But you're not aware that you're performing the same task, either because you're not through dealing with it yet and your mind refuses to let you move on until it's settled, or because there is some physical obstruction that medication can help you with. A healthy mind will not get caught up in this circle until it's been consumed and all other 'reality' forgotten. An unhealthy mind will.

 

[gwendel]

Yes. But like LejuN and flowers said before, the fact that you are aware of a 'right' frame of mind probably means that you're not losing it. When you convince yourself that your 'wrong' frame of mind is the 'right' one is when you're probably in trouble. But you wouldn't know that at the time.

Well, I'm not saying that such a person is insane, merely that with a lack of being able to get a logical foothold on the situation, it may feel from an emotional standpoint as though they are slipping mentally. Think you are losing your mind and actually losing it are two different things.

But not all our knowledge comes from personal experience. I'm not referring to a priori knowledge or anything of the sort, just to a posteriori knowledge gained in different ways.

Well, then you can at least concede that the two work in tandum to form a person's present attitude towards life and society in general. One of the most favored devices of psychological therapists is to ask someone about their childhood, because by understanding a person's past, they can better understand why their present views are such as they are, and use it to work through their present problems better. Again, I am talking assuming that a person is indeed normal, and not insane.

However, it's of course hard to break out of the emotional circle your own experience has put you in and look at things objectively, in any given situation. Especially if your own experience has caused a great deal of emotion. And this can work with both negative and positive emotions.

Ah, but there's the point I was trying to make! I sometimes find it very difficult to see things from another persons perspective, because I am a very emotional person, and for the most part, I don't really consider myself to have had a normal life, so I find it much more difficult to perceive what is a "normal" reaction to something. I only know what is normal for the place where I grew up, and I've discovered quite clearly through a lot of recent discussions with a dear friend patterns in my behavior that really need some work on my part.

To a person who hasn't taken the time to stop and think about that (really, I think a number of the world's wars even came from people who held strongly to a particular idea without stopping to serious think through or acknowledge the others' POV, to the point of being willing to fight about it), it's easy to just wonder "Boy, they have some weird ideas. Are they crazy?" This is again the emotional reaction, not a diagnosis of true insanity.

We call someone 'brainless' or 'stupid' if they never expect something to go wrong because in their experience it never has. Maybe we should start calling people the same who think that nothing will ever go right just because that's what their own experience is... (<- that was directed at myself ;; )

Now that's an interesting observation that I hadn't thought about yet. I guess if I think about it, I can also think of a few recent situations where I've made that sort of rash decision. I guess you could say also that's why so many parents and teenage kids feel so frustrated towards each other, because that is always a very good example of that sort of situation.

But there is a difference between a search for 'the truth' that a healthy mind makes, and the endless circles an unwell mind goes through thinking it's in fact progressing. I hope I'm making sense.

Well, again, my point was somewhere in-between that, if one thinks about something enough, I honestly do think that even a healthy person could run themselves around in circles to the point that they think they understand a certain situation, or the motivations of another person, when in reality their perception of the situation is primarily based on a mix of fact, fiction, and guessing from prior experience.

I'm not talking about the quest for truth in an ultimate sense, but merely thinking through a scenerio with incomplete data and trying to create the truth from it. And then letting your emotions affect your reaction, which is a recipe for disaster. I wonder how many times I've overeacted just because I came to my own conclusion after hours of thinking and brooding about something I was worried or upset about. I'm sure that I must have appeared very irrational to the other person involved.

I guess I am really talking about what a person's perceptions of what is crazy can be by letting your emotions affect that judgement, but I've never stated that these are the marks of insanity, just that it could cause someone who doesn't understand yours, Flowers, etc. definition to question their own sanity, even if they have it. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Anonymous]

I do know what you’re saying. What is it that makes other people think someone is insane, or might make the person themselves think that they are. Since the word is so subjective and all, I suppose you don't think there's a real definition of it? I'm discussing exactly in order to give it a possible definition.

Unless we already came to one and I missed it somewhere, in which case you are just discussing for the sake of seeing what gives people the wrong idea. I have little patience myself with contemplating what I know to be erroneous conclusions when I could be contemplating what the correct ones are so I jumped ahead (or sideways) a bit. But if that's all you want to be discussing, since 3 people have almost eaten me alive so far (for apparently not seeing my point of view), I'll leave you to it...

 

[gwendel]

:chuckles: I'm sorry if I have caused you any trouble by going off on a side-tangent, and I hope you don't think I was attacking anything you said. I know you were trying to reach a certain conclusion, but the question which I mapped out above was in my head at the time, so I didn't consider much harm in bringing it up. I appreciate your answer, even on the points where we didn't fully agree, because I like to debate ideas and hear other people's opinions, and I thought your opinion was very interesting and I will admit helped me better understand what I've wondered about for a while. As I said, if I think about it all by myself for too long, I may come to a totally wrong answer.

As for the question of the exact point when a person is insane vs. sane? Well, I guess I wouldn't say that is completely subjective, but I would say extremely hard to define. Again, my legal dealings I mentioned in my first post have taught me that. I wouldn't even want to try to define it.

Oh, and in retrospect, I realize if must have been very silly in this context hearing a Klaha quote from me. Truth is, I have a habit of quoting a number of unorthodox sources whenever I thought they had something particularly interesting or thoughtful to say (I have been known to quote Bjork; you can imagine the reaction I could get from that ).

 

[Marvie]

I think it has something to do with wearing shorts and white socks with black shoes in public and/or underwear with holes in ithem..I am not sure...I will go ask my dancing Penguin friends and get back to you on the subject.

 

[gwendel]

I envy you. I can never get my Penguin friends to talk with me about philosophical discussions, and such. They just sit around all day watching soap operas, and playing practical jokes on polar bears.