Mana overrated

[Elec]

First off, I speak as a musician and a composer myself.

Alot of people, and I myself, dont like Mana because alot of Mana's songs are snippets that are taken from Classical pieces - he didn't actually compose most of the music - he just arranged it. He made this quite obvious in "BAROQUE" and quite intentional by using Beethoven's "Fur Elise" and Mozart's "Rondo Alla Turca" in another song... I forget which. As Mana progresses in time, he steals musical ideas from lesser known Classical pieces. I used to listen to alot of Bach (I almost had 50% of all his compositions until I had to reformat) along with Beethoven, Chopin and other Classical composers and I too reckognize alot of "Mana's" musical ideas - mainly from the time when I was listenning to Classical music. Its either he intentionally knew that he was stealing musical ideas from some of the greatest composers of all time OR The musical ideas must have subconsciously entered his mind upon the time of "composition" - This is not an uncommon phenomena amongst composers - I know because whenever I freestyle to try and come up with something, I end up producing a song I have allready heard before. Mana basically used the genius of others to get rich and alot of fame out of popular Japanese culture. Moi Dix Mois is even worse - every song sounds the almost the same and I was informed by a friend that one of MDM's songs was a complete replicate of one of Chopin's pieces (I forgot which. Sorry). Its a cheap trick but thats what you get when you compose tonal music. See thats the thing about tonality - when a composer chooses to compose using tonal theory, the composer can only repeat musical ideas which have allready been thought of before - it will never be original idea because every tonal musical idea has been thought of allready. There exists nothing new - its all just a repeat. This is most evident in punk bands like Green Day who play the same boring cliche I-IV-V-IV-I chord progression through out every song. Yet why does it sell? Because that is the nature of tonal music. The V chord pulls you to the I chord (ii, IV, VII as well, if you want to get technical). The composer does not allow himself/herself any freedom. When a composer chooses to compose tonal music, he/she sacrifices individuality and originality. This is one of the reasons, why I like atonal music. Atonal music such as Bela Bartok (Considered by many the Beethoven of the 20th Century), and Henry Cowell (Who invented a completely new way of playing the piano by getting inside and attacking the strings with different parts of his body and making music out of it). Atonality, It gives me alot more freedom as a composer and awhile atonality isn't ment to sound good like tonality, "what sounds good" is really in the ears of the listenner. However, there is no real market for atonal music, the composer sacrifices fame and money. Only elitist modern garde/minimalists/modernists with university music majors would invest in such a thing. Anyway I am getting carried away with this. Back to Mana, this is one of the reasons why people dislike Mana, along with other reasons that were stated earlier in this thread.

As a musician and composer myself, I would hate to be Mana. I see what Mana has done as having lack of integrity and respect for those he has stole from.

But the music, regardless of who wrote it, still sounds good in my opinion and I think thats all that matters in the end.

I guess you can say I am a semi-elitist. I side with both you guys and elitist friends with music majors.

This is such bullshit. Tell you what: I'm going to speak as a musician and composer too. Now we're on equal footing.

First of all, the fact that you think that no one else would notice that there are snippets of classical pieces in there is more elitist than it needs to be. Don't for one second think that Mana was trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. It's very clear that Malice Mizer and Mana want you to think "oh, that's Mozart", and "oh, that's Beethoven" when those parts come up. Are you going to hate a group like Dream Theater for stealing from themselves?
Also I'm pretty familiar with Chopin, so why don't you do a little research and dig up that m10m/Chopin crossover so it's not just a baseless rumor.
As for atonal music, its only good use is an intellectual exercise. You can use bits of atonal composing in the midst of actual, you know, listenable music (back to the Dream Theater example, they do this at times), but of COURSE atonal music isn't a product anyone would want to invest in. I don't know how you're getting the syllogism where "people with music majors" = "dislike of Mana".
I am a serious student of music -- just like you! -- and I don't like seeing people misinterpret the fairly obvious, i.e. that the references are supposed to be noticed.
I've mentioned the "Malice Mizer chord progression" before, so you've noticed something there, but that doesn't neccesitate the degradation of the music.
There's plenty of freedom in tonal music, and to promote anything otherwise as fact necessarily makes you look more elitist than I think you'd want and also looks antagonistic.

 

[Priss]

Thank you, Elec.



Priss

 

[Formless]

Hey, haven't we had this conversation before? -puts another notch in the "Repeated Argument" tally-

 

[Tastes Like Future]

If mana is overrated, it isn't his fault. It's everyone who makes a big deal about how great and wonderful he is. Yes. I think mana is overrated. Only because his fans make him out to be more great and wonderful than he really is. Don't get me wrong, he is great and wonderful, just not on the level that everyone puts him on.

 

[Ma_cherie]

I have the weirdest reaction to people who deeply dislike things that I deeply love. I feel sorry for them. I feel like, for whatever reason, they are incapable of seeing the value of something that I've been able to get so much out of.

i kinda get that way too...but..i get sort of confused...like i cant understand how they can be unaffected by it..

btw not really on topic but i think Mana should get props for staying visual kei for so long...for not dropping the VK look once he got popular XD

whats this i hear about K's eyebrows? o_O

I agree with you! He goes on doing what he believes on; he never stops trying to fulfil his artistic concept... Btw this is off-topic but I love your Kami avatar so much *cries*

 

[Midi]

First, what does OTT mean?

Second, I have trouble choosing between Mana and Dir en Grey when someone asks me, 'who is/are your favourite musician/s?'... so... yeah.

People have a right to dislike Mana. I mean, duh. What I hate, though, is when they have a freakin' stupid reason like 'he shaved K's eyebrows'. What the hell is that? That just says to me that they don't have a clue what they're talking about and are just saying they hate Mana to be 'cool', when in reality they're just proving how immature they are.

But what really, really makes me mad is when people say,

Mana should be doing this, Mana should be doing that.

Take Malice Mizer for example. People look at them and say (and this was said before), "Mana shouldn't be dancing around, Mana should be playing guitar!"

No.

Malice Mizer was not a rock band. They fit into many different genres, had many different ways of expressing their ideas, and sometimes playing guitar didn't fit in with that. Get over it.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest.

But that was just my example. Sometimes people say 'He shouldn't wear makeup', 'he should stop crossdressing'... If he did that, wouldn't he cease to be Mana, or rather, the Mana that many people know and love? He'd become a completely different artist to what he is now, and if you want that, why are you paying attention to him at all? Go be a Gackt fan.

I guess my point is, a lot of people's reasons for disliking Mana are a result of them trying to pigeon-hole him, to make him fit in with their idea of what they want him to be... which isn't fair on him. Getting mad about it and going onto a forum to crap on about it like so many 'fans' do isn't fair to us.

End.

 

[Elec]

You have points I agree with...but I take issue with a lot here too.

But what really, really makes me mad is when people say, Mana should be doing this, Mana should be doing that. Take Malice Mizer for example. People look at them and say (and this was said before), "Mana shouldn't be dancing around, Mana should be playing guitar!"

No.

Yes. I don't know why that makes you mad. I DON'T thing Mana should be dancing around; I think he should play guitar. I don't have to take all the artists I like or dislike as is; all or nothing. Mana does some things I think are cool; he does lots I think are extremely not cool. I don't have to completely devote myself to him; I can still be critical. And whoa, I am. When he pleases me I say so.

Malice Mizer was not a rock band.

Funny; they were in an awful lot of rock magazines.

They fit into many different genres, had many different ways of expressing their ideas, and sometimes playing guitar didn't fit in with that. Get over it.

This is true; but the "get over it" leads me to believe that you don't understand where a lot of his critics who take their time to think about their critiques are coming from.

But that was just my example. Sometimes people say 'He shouldn't wear makeup', 'he should stop crossdressing'... If he did that, wouldn't he cease to be Mana, or rather, the Mana that many people know and love? He'd become a completely different artist to what he is now, and if you want that, why are you paying attention to him at all? Go be a Gackt fan.

I take offense to that; I am a Gackt fan as well as, I suppose, a Mana fan. And frankly I'd like to see him evolve a LOT. I'd LOVE to see him do something normal and refreshing for a change, and surely now you can see why. Has he done different things in m10m? ...kinda. Not drastic enough for my tastes, like, say, Gackt's musical changes, or Dir en grey's, or Yes's, or Dream Theater's, etc. etc. etc.
Look, let's turn it around: you complain because I'd like him to mix it up a little (okay a lot); I complain because his most hard-core fans seem to want him to stay exactly the same.

I guess my point is, a lot of people's reasons for disliking Mana are a result of them trying to pigeon-hole him, to make him fit in with their idea of what they want him to be... which isn't fair on him. Getting mad about it and going onto a forum to crap on about it like so many 'fans' do isn't fair to us.

That's the thing; to me his fans are pigeon-holing him.

 

[Seventh Arm]

Stuff

I suppose I have to ask, why do you want him to do other stuff? WHy do you want Mana to be 'normal', as you put it. I don;t understand that. It's like you're trying to fit Mana in with your ideals, rather than accepting what he is. You can bat it ack and forth however you want but I'm perfectly happy with Mana as he is, even though I may have slightly preferred his MM era music.

 

[Formless]

But what really, really makes me mad is when people say, Mana should be doing this, Mana should be doing that. Take Malice Mizer for example. People look at them and say (and this was said before), "Mana shouldn't be dancing around, Mana should be playing guitar!"

No.

I could swear the booklets would say "Mana: Guitar". Not "Mana: Dancing, antics and avoiding instruments".

But that was just my example. Sometimes people say 'He shouldn't wear makeup', 'he should stop crossdressing'... If he did that, wouldn't he cease to be Mana, or rather, the Mana that many people know and love? He'd become a completely different artist to what he is now, and if you want that, why are you paying attention to him at all? Go be a Gackt fan.

So without makeup and frilly clothes Mana would be a different musician? How does the effect his music at all? His stage performance, yeah, but not his music. Elec pays attention to Mana for the same reasons I do. His music. Not the dances he does. Not the pounds of makeup he's wearing. Not the pretty new dress he's got.

And "Go be a Gackt fan"? What's that supposed to mean? Are you implying that Gackt fans are lower than Mana fans? I think Gackt's career would say otherwise.

 

[Midi]

Ok, I'll admit the 'get over it' was out of place.

But I still think that though Malice Mizer was called a rock band, they weren't a rock band in the sense that bands like Dir en Grey are. Syunikiss, Gekka, Madrigal, and many, many other songs couldn't be called rock.

Also, I didn't mean 'Go be a Gackt' fan to sound like an insult. I meant it in a 'he doesn't crossdress or wear VK makeup anymore so if you're looking for an artist like that, he's your man' kinda way. I didn't stop to think how that would be interpreted.

I don't want him to stay exactly the same, I want him to grow and flourish musically, but I don't want to see people asking him to compromise his artistic vision.

 

[flowersofnight]

People are talking about whether Mana should "evolve" or not. I think what we're missing here is that some people, when they say "evolve" mean "do a DEG-style reboot and throw everything out", while others would like to see Mana's work evolve in a natural fashion, building on and expanding what has come before.

So without makeup and frilly clothes Mana would be a different musician? How does the effect his music at all?

Good question. So why do so many people want him to drop the makeup and cross-dressing if it doesn't matter?

 

[Formless]

Good question. So why do so many people want him to drop the makeup and cross-dressing if it doesn't matter?

Mana's fine the way he is to me in terms of looks. I'd just like to see some evolution in his music, like you said.

 

[Elec]

Stuff

I suppose I have to ask, why do you want him to do other stuff? WHy do you want Mana to be 'normal', as you put it. I don;t understand that. It's like you're trying to fit Mana in with your ideals, rather than accepting what he is. You can bat it ack and forth however you want but I'm perfectly happy with Mana as he is, even though I may have slightly preferred his MM era music.

I've already mentioned how telling me that "I'm trying to make Mana fit my ideals" is essentially bunk. I don't have to accept him as he is; at least not as a musician and performer. I think it's very irresponsible to see it in black and white. I'm glad you're happy with him! That's great. But sometimes when I mention my critiques (when invited to) I get these kind of responses. Look: I'm glad you've found a musician who fits into your ideals. Mana doesn't fit mine and I can say so and I like to think the reason I put the effort into explaining my opinions so they'd be respected.
He has some elements of his music/performance which fit my ideals; some don't.

And besides: I merely stipulate that it would be refreshing (maybe if only to me) for him to do the things I suggested. Do I really 'expect' him to? Am I going to throw a temper tantrum if he doesn't?

 

[flowersofnight]

Mana's fine the way he is to me in terms of looks. I'd just like to see some evolution in his music, like you said.

Yeah I wasn't saying you wanted a look change, but apparently plenty of people do.

Anyway my point with the whole evolution thing is that there are some things that can be reasonably expected as an artist progresses, and some that aren't. At some point it's like people are saying "Yeah, I'd love Mana... if he just happened to be completely different. Maybe he will be one day."

Speaking of which, I'd love Gackt a lot more if he would evolve a bit, drop the pretty-boy image, dress up like a rough, tough yakuza, and maybe do some enka songs converted to blowout punk style. I hope he finds the artistic integrity to evolve like that.

 

[Elec]

People are talking about whether Mana should "evolve" or not. I think what we're missing here is that some people, when they say "evolve" mean "do a DEG-style reboot and throw everything out", while others would like to see Mana's work evolve in a natural fashion, building on and expanding what has come before.

Well, he could do either, really, but I don't see him evolving at a rate that will prevent him from getting stale to me.

So without makeup and frilly clothes Mana would be a different musician? How does the effect his music at all?

Good question. So why do so many people want him to drop the makeup and cross-dressing if it doesn't matter?

Well, I think we'd be doing the genre a disservice to completely disregard the visuals ('visual'...kei), but sometimes, don't you think it gets in the way of the music?

 

[Midi]

With other musicians, quitting the VK look doesn't really matter. It didn't matter to me when Dir en Grey did it. (I'm sorry for continuously using them as an example, btw >_>)

But with Mana, I believe it's part of who he is as an artist, and it would matter greatly.

By 'Evolve', I mean 'in the natural way', not the 'in the Diru way', personally.

EDIT: Also, to clarify something else, I believe there is a difference between saying "I would like to see him do this" and "He should be doing this". Some people would like to hear him speak more than a sentence, but should he? Only if he damn well wants to. Have I made myself a little clearer?

 

[Elec]

Anyway my point with the whole evolution thing is that there are some things that can be reasonably expected as an artist progresses, and some that aren't. At some point it's like people are saying "Yeah, I'd love Mana... if he just happened to be completely different. Maybe he will be one day."

That's what I feel my (and probably Kazuo's) arguments are being misinterpreted as.

By 'Evolve', I mean 'in the natural way', not the 'in the Diru way', personally.

Right. I've never mentioned a complete "hard-drive" wipeout, so to speak, just...maybe pick up the pace a little. Something in-between what he's doing now and that, maybe. :-P

 

[Tastes Like Future]

Mana does things for himself. When people like what he does, it makes him happy, but he doesn't do everything based on what others say. So even if his fans are all crazy and such, that doesn't mean he'll have to go out and change just for them. moi dix mois is his solo project, meaning that he wants to project himself into the music. Not the self the fans want. (this isn't a fanservice band)

So enjoy moi dix mois for what it is, just mana being himself. If you think that someone being themselves is overrated or is in need of a change then so be it. Usually people respect others who can 'be themselves'.

 

[Geisha]

I don't think anybody is saying that Mana should be doing these things – wear makeup, dress up, not speak in public – for all eternity, just that there is no need for him to move on unless he wants to and that asking him to become "normal" is basically asking him to stop being himself. I think a lot of people who want him to change don't realise that to him, as opposed to many other VK artists, the music, clothes and overall aesthetics aren't an image that he presents to the outside world and that is washed off and packed away when the show is over. He has said more than once that to him it is all part of a lifestyle and that he is hoping to attract like-minded people to his "world". I think within this world he has evolved quite a bit since his early MM days and I hope he will continue to evolve.

Speaking of which, I'd love Gackt a lot more if he would evolve a bit, drop the pretty-boy image, dress up like a rough, tough yakuza, and maybe do some enka songs converted to blowout punk style. I hope he finds the artistic integrity to evolve like that.

Thank you.

First, what does OTT mean?

It means: over the top.

 

[Tastes Like Future]

Do you think that Mana has evolved a whole lot less since he started Moi dix Mois though?