Who's the cleverest businessman?

[flowersofnight]

First of all, I think this contest is really only between Mana and Kisaki because none of the others are running their own companies

Well I guess Kaie is too, but maybe that's not a serious answer to begin with

Anyway, a couple comments on your comparison:

"Own fashion label": That's not really a fair comparison; you can still be a good businessman without doing business in that particular area.

And in general your list seems to have a heavy emphasis on international activity. Again, you seem to present this as a positive thing to have, but depending on the circumstances, for a given business the wisest course of action might be either a strong, limited, or nonexistent international presence. So, comparing the international strategies of 2 businesses purely "by the numbers" seems to me like comparing apples and oranges.
For example, M10M is a relatively popular band in Europe, while I assume Kisaki's band-of-the-month is probably less so. Given that, their international presence inevitably will be, and should be, different.

However the relative wisdom of the international strategies Mana and Kisaki are pursuing is certainly an interesting question in its own right. I don't know enough about what Kisaki's up to to comment though. Anyone care to fill me in?

Also, are the stats you put up for Kisaki just for his own bands or for all bands on his label?


One other thing: I'm rather surprised how few people voted for Kisaki.


EDIT:

I just want to say that while some of you see Malice Mizer's move to Columbia from Midi:Nette and back again as "Mana suiting his needs", I see it as "a major label didn't sign them on for future works".

Yeah, I think that while Mana may have been happy in the end with the move, a big factor was probably that Columbia didn't have much interest in the band without its charismatic vocalist...

 

[Geisha]

"Own fashion label": That's not really a fair comparison; you can still be a good businessman without doing business in that particular area.

And in general your list seems to have a heavy emphasis on international activity. Again, you seem to present this as a positive thing to have, but depending on the circumstances, for a given business the wisest course of action might be either a strong, limited, or nonexistent international presence. So, comparing the international strategies of 2 businesses purely "by the numbers" seems to me like comparing apples and oranges.
For example, M10M is a relatively popular band in Europe, while I assume Kisaki's band-of-the-month is probably less so. Given that, their international presence inevitably will be, and should be, different".

I never said that you have to own a fashion label to be a good businessman. I wasn't presenting going international as inherently positive either. I was just pointing out the similarities (that includes wanting to go international) and the differences (that includes fashion). I also said in my summary that I have no idea about domestic CD sales but assume that they are about the same.

Also, are the stats you put up for Kisaki just for his own bands or for all bands on his label?

For all his bands but I have to admit that I'm not 100% up to speed on his activities. I just used what I could find on Undercode's website and on JaME. The stats for Mana are for MM, M10M and SS.

One other thing: I'm rather surprised how few people voted for Kisaki.

Me too. I think it's a very close call.

 

[flowersofnight]

I never said that you have to own a fashion label to be a good businessman. I wasn't presenting going international as inherently positive either. I was just pointing out the similarities (that includes wanting to go international) and the differences (that includes fashion). I also said in my summary that I have no idea about domestic CD sales but assume that they are about the same.

Fair enough; I guess I got the wrong idea and read the lists more as "Mana vs. Kisaki" than as a general backgrounder.

Any Kisaki experts in the house? I think we need some more detailed info!

 

[Monophobia]

Any Kisaki experts in the house? I think we need some more detailed info!

I'm a little confused about this whole thing now...but I'll give it a shot. I'm not a Kisaki "expert" but I follow Undercode Productions quite closely so I can see many different things going on to compare.

Anyway, Kisaki Project has already been to Europe as well and judging by both Live DVDs of M10M and KP, M10M probably had a more solid audience and fan amount. None of the the other Undercode bands have ever been to Europe though.

Vidoll, however, seem to gain more fans everyday...they are definately the most successful Undercode band thus far, and Kisaki promotes them like hell. Kisaki knows how to do this type of thing by now I would assume, and it seems by milking money from the most popular bands (Phantasmagoria, Vidoll, and 12012) it can keep the label running with a little help from "the others" (Karen, Himitsu Kessha CodomoA, etc.)

Kisaki seems to be looking at going international as well though. Phantasmagoria will play in the US this month at an anime con, however. This will definately gain many more of those mindless otaku fangirls that only like them because they're "pretty and japanese".

Mana doesn't seem to do this type of thing. He has not played at anime conventions, yet he seems to be the more popular one without having to do these things.

Kisaki also sells like 2 song singles and throws in a cheap little DVD of live clips with a song over it, making it 1,900 yen for a 2 song single for Phantasmagoria. Also, Vidolls many Live DVDs and Live Only singles by many of the bands...

I'm not sure if this is what you were asking for, I'm tired from painting for like 6 hours today. >_<;

 

[Formless]

Kisaki did fanservice with products at AX (so I read from Sumire if I remember correctly).

Fanservice with items..? What exactly do you mean by that?

 

[Monophobia]

Kisaki did fanservice with products at AX (so I read from Sumire if I remember correctly).

Fanservice with items..? What exactly do you mean by that?

I remember reading that he would put a Phantasmagoria CD (if you bought one) down his shirt or kiss it, etc.

EDT- It wasn't at AX, I think I had Shibuya AX in my head when I was typing that or something >_< but I meant at the anime con appearance that you also attended.

 

[Elec]

Kisaki did fanservice with products at AX (so I read from Sumire if I remember correctly).

Fanservice with items..? What exactly do you mean by that?

Babies are items!

 

[Formless]

Kisaki did fanservice with products at AX (so I read from Sumire if I remember correctly).

Fanservice with items..? What exactly do you mean by that?

I remember reading that he would put a Phantasmagoria CD (if you bought one) down his shirt or kiss it, etc.

EDT- It wasn't at AX, I think I had Shibuya AX in my head when I was typing that or something >_< but I meant at the anime con appearance that you also attended.

I didn't see Kisaki do that once and I was there every day to see him. o___O

 

[Monophobia]

Kisaki did fanservice with products at AX (so I read from Sumire if I remember correctly).

Fanservice with items..? What exactly do you mean by that?

I remember reading that he would put a Phantasmagoria CD (if you bought one) down his shirt or kiss it, etc.

EDT- It wasn't at AX, I think I had Shibuya AX in my head when I was typing that or something >_< but I meant at the anime con appearance that you also attended.

I didn't see Kisaki do that once and I was there every day to see him. o___O

Well I read it from Sumire, and I wouldn't think she'd lie since she was there too...but whatever. I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.

EDT - I edited it out of my original post anyway, considering it isn't all that important if it happened or not.

 

[Sumire_hitsugi]

Well I read it from Sumire, and I wouldn't think she'd lie since she was there too...but whatever. I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.

Oh wow. Someone read through my crappy report. XD

I didn't see Kisaki do that once and I was there every day to see him. o___O

I saw him and Riku do that on the very first day, after pictures were taken and it didn't seem like anybody had any good questions to ask them. I managed to be right up front and to the side, instead of standing behind the mass of people trying to see them. o.o;

Yes. Sorry to be off-topic. *shuffles away*

 

[nekoi]

As I do love Mana, please do not think of me as biased, but judging by his long list of upfront successes, I voted for him.

Don't hate me? ;_;

 

[faith]

1) Moitie is successful in that it has survived for (so far) 6 years despite not only being nichy by nature but also far more expensive than most other Gothic Lolita labels (justifiably so but it must put people off). And AFAIK the "new" things on CD Japan (the Gothic Arch stuff, the high waist EGA trousers and lots of the other stuff) are new. Of course I don't live in Japan, so I can't personally check on what's in the shops but I didn't see them when I was in Tokyo last December and it's the same stuff that's on the Japanese website. Also, Mana is modeling it in this year's GLB.

Nah. I have a bunch of their "new" stuff I bought last February...and none of the new releases from the web site are there (in fact, some've sold out).
It's more expensive because Mana has, in effect, commodified HIMSELF and utilized the Japanese materialist society, which I feel turns out to have been the smartest thing he could have done given the circumstances. The way I see it, he was able to ride on the shoulders of Malice's major label fame by incorporating fans into the world. Even after Malice broke up a bunch of people lost interest in his music, but the clothing was still a constant. It's not that much more expensive than the clothes in normal department stores...remember, Japan is around 2X more expensive clothing-wise than elsewhere.
Then when UV, etc, stopped running as many articles on him, he still had the GLB (who've said they support him COMPLETELY) to promote him. I don't think Moitie is extremely sucessful from a business perspective; Shinjuku rent is high and a lot of the clothes don't quite sell out (hence they pimp them on the foreign fanbase through CDJapan, since foreigners are just getting into the scene).

But, like stated, I don't think Moitie is all for profit, though he must make some. And even if he lost money on it, he couldn't stop it. That would be kind of like ending his career and promotion...doesn't update his website much, so he's gotta update Moitie...like, here I'm thinking more of the opportunity costs.

2) Mana was the leader of MM, so if he didn't want to go to Columbia I'm pretty sure they would not have gone. I guess I'm assuming that he took them back again but he did say that he prefers to be on Midi:Nette where he has full control over being at Columbia, so at least he wasn't unhappy to go back.

Sure, but who doesn't like promotion? We'll never know. It could be sour grapes.

So CD Japan wasn't up to the job. I guess that's why the FC is now being run by Midi:Nette.

After a year of mess-ups, and now that the band is on haitus
Although, they might have just worked with CDJapan as long as they had to, used their advertizing, and then left...?
Again, we don't know.

Prior to playing 2 lives in Europe in March 2005 M10M played at Dis Inferno in December 2004 and had another live in February 2005. The tour final of the European Tour was in Tokyo.

Hey, just going with what I heard from THEM and a friend who lives in Japan.

I don't know what you mean - he has talked about lots of different things.

You haven't read the old Madousho then.

I don't agree with that at all, especially the "not taking fans into account". Of course he is still inexperienced when it comes to handling things like international expansion and he makes mistakes (I never said that he didn't) but, as far as I can see, every time he becomes aware of it he does something about it.

I'm not talking about the foreign fans...people seem to attribute to Mana some sort of God status, but I don't because I'm only casually interested. I respect some things about him, and I think he has some things he could work on. And I also think you can't possibly interpret how well someone is running their business unless you know their motivations. Can anyone honestly say they know what Mana wants? Not unless you've spoken with him directly.

 

[Formless]

Well I read it from Sumire, and I wouldn't think she'd lie since she was there too...but whatever. I wasn't there so I don't know for sure.

Oh wow. Someone read through my crappy report. XD

I didn't see Kisaki do that once and I was there every day to see him. o___O

I saw him and Riku do that on the very first day, after pictures were taken and it didn't seem like anybody had any good questions to ask them. I managed to be right up front and to the side, instead of standing behind the mass of people trying to see them. o.o;

Yes. Sorry to be off-topic. *shuffles away*

I was right next to Riku, more of in front of him and right in the front. Kisaki was just holding a NEVER REBELLION single in his corset for like.. 10 seconds and jokingly gave it a kiss (not on it, more of close to it) and then quickly put it down as if to say 'Just joking'. I didn't feel that was very much.. fanservice of any kind.

 

[Monophobia]

Anyways...

Without PS COMPANY as an option, I would just choose Mana I suppose. It seems his way of business is more effective, so far anyway. This could change once more Undercode bands tour in Europe though..

 

[Formless]

Anyways...

Without PS COMPANY as an option, I would just choose Mana I suppose. It seems his way of business is more effective, so far anyway. This could change once more Undercode bands tour in Europe though..

PS Company has alot of bands leave their lable though. bis, I know Gazette is going major and going to be signed onto another label (but I'm not sure if it's going to be a joint contract with PSC).

 

[Elec]

Maybe the fact that I'm not a fan of Kisaki is coloring my opinion, but I don't think he's a "good" businessman. When you have to completely change your business name and everything, seem to have a rotating roster of bands that form, are mediocre, and break up... that's just stubborn. Even the most successful bands have only a handful of songs I think that are really good; the rest are either filler or bad. But then again, if people are buying... maybe it's not such a bad business after all.

I know some may say I shouldn't talk if I don't REALLY know a whole lot about Kisaki's business or those labels or bands, but from the information I've run across, this is what crosses my mind. :-/

 

[flowersofnight]

When you have to completely change your business name and everything

Maybe he has his reasons... one possible scenario is that he declared bankruptcy on one company after deriving as much personal enrichment from it as possible, then started a new one

seem to have a rotating roster of bands that form, are mediocre, and break up...
*snip*
But then again, if people are buying... maybe it's not such a bad business after all.

Exactly! I think he's got the promotion of disposable bands down to a science. While artistically it might not be the most admirable thing, it may make good business sense in the end.

 

[Elec]

What's that little smiley there, flowers? :-*

 

[flowersofnight]

What's that little smiley there, flowers? :-*

CREDIT KING!

I don't have the original online, but he is the king of credit.

Not to be confused with the Extra Credit King

 

[sailorKa]

CREDIT KING! <3 *_*

...sorry for being offtopic.

--k *if I had my old computer i could give you the original..you posted it here a long time ago*