Random Thoughts Showcase Spectacular

[PureElegance]

Ughhh

My point about purse shopping with your father is just that there are some gender-specific things people tend to do that aren't necessarily sexist. That example clearly doesn't apply to you, but it doesn't change the fact that we do different things with different age groups/genders/etc. and it doesn't mean that we think that demographic is privileged/inferior or anything like that.

*never wants to listen to you again*

I don't think shopping in general is unmanly--I actually like clothes shopping myself. But I thought purse shopping would be a universally-accepted female activity XD

I don't know why though? I guess it's the stereotype. You italicize "purse" as if that's supposed to be the most-female thing ever. I just don't find it shocking or weird if a man wants to go purse shopping or do other traditionally "female" things.
(This isn't to say I'm against classically manly behavior though! I just don't find it weird if a man wants to do "female" things.)

I also get the whole, "Your father cooks for you? WOAH" as if that was a revelation. I also had to read a book last year about how mothers should almost always get custody of children during divorce and I was upset about that. I mentioned it to my professor and she was like, "Well you're an exception" and how I came out well with my upbringing--as if that wasn't possible before. XD

Man, sometimes I feel as if we haven't progressed at all. I'm having enough trouble dealing with stereotypes for what men can/can't do, I can't even imagine what it's like for the LGBTQ folks.

So what makes you so sure that men ever felt that way about it? Hmmm? Hmmm?

Because in the past that's how it was XD I don't think men think that way now though because it would be really silly and sexist. I'm not sure why you keep asking me as if I actually think these things though. I can't really give a good explanation since I don't usually think this way. What's up? XD

It's actually a pretty silly assumption to make. I mean, obviously women are strong enough to open their own doors. Holding the door is just a matter of basic courtesy rather than "OHMIGOD YOU LOOK SO WEAK LET ME GET THIS FOR YOU YOU WEAKLING!"

Yeah, I agree. In the past I think it was more like "oh women, they're so delicate so don't swear in front of them and don't let them be lawyers," but I don't think opening the door means this unless the guy is an actual pig. I wouldn't assume that about anyone.

Have you never seen a group of boys before? In that context, it totally does XD

Of course, I've had male friends who were bullied by other boys because they were nicer than most and thus seen as effeminate (as if there was something wrong with that), so they ended up hiding in the bathrooms. I don't see why continuing this sort of thing is acceptable.


OK wow I'm late for this lunch

EDIT: @Berserk:
"When a man insists on paying for all your meals, what's the real motive? Claire McGowan examines why she fights for the right to pay her own way."
http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/200 ... od_of_love
Here's an article that's always bothered me and it's about men paying for dinner on date. I don't really agree with the author.

So why do some men still insist on paying all the time? Is it that they have been socialised into believing that this is the only way for they to prove his manliness to their dinner date; that to split the bill is somehow an insult to their masculinity? Could it be that the idea of financially independent women is deeply terrifying in a male-dominated society?

Yeah.... XD

 

[Cerceaux]

Purses suck ass.

 

[eMiNaTiC]

upon more in-depth reflection, I've realized that my door-holding experiences are limited to college campuses and casinos - both of which have hoards of people walking through the doors at any given time. it's pretty much assumed that you're going to hold the door for the next person behind you. If only these sexist, outdated buildings would just switch to automatic doors already and we could be free from having to make the decision of whether or not to hold the door once and for all

what really bothers me is when people use the WRONG door in a set of double doors (particularly in a crowded situation like a campus). the door on your right is the correct door, people. The door on the left is for opposing traffic. that way people don't walk into each other when they both try to get in/out at the same time. the same applies for stairs and hallways. (I actually looked into this matter out of curiosity...it turns out the reverse is true in countries that drive on the left )

 

[flowersofnight]

(I actually looked into this matter out of curiosity...it turns out the reverse is true in countries that drive on the left )

In Japan I was "That annoying stupid gaijin who's standing/walking on the wrong side" at least 10000 times

 

[PureElegance]

Purses suck ass.

You're a shame to all womanhood.

I like purses! The ones I usually get are more for use than to be pretty. They're usually over the shoulder and are durable while stylish. This Hello Kitty one I got for China is really great, it has a good zipper, it's fabric is super tough (I can't rip through it!), sort of like that parachute material, and it has good pockets. So it's really handy while at the same time cute. I have a bunch of special occasion ones too though.

@Eminatic: I love the idea of a sexist building XD
Speaking of which, they're introducing "gender neutral" dorms at NYU this year (or next year, I forget). I wonder what that would be like, haha.
*filling out application* "I want a male roommate who wears silk robes and knows the Chinese classics."

I just came home from an event... While I was there my friend said I had missed out on something for making a certain life decision and I was just thinking, "LOL, do you know what my life is like? XD" But instead I said, "I love my life." I think it's been working out pretty well so far!

I'm so happy I'm taking my photography class too. I was almost not going to take it, but I can't even imagine NOT taking it now. I'm so happy with all the great comments and love I'm receiving and I've gotten so much better! We're also taking classes for photoshop by a professor from ECNU who visits, but I'm more a traditional picture person. The only things I edit on my pictures are the saturation, contrast, exposure, brightness, things I could've done by hand if I wanted to do it the long way. I don't actually add anything, but I like to bring out what's already there.

Photoshop's interesting though. I used to do a lot more with it years ago, back when I had a Wacom tablet, but I'm relearning it so it's taking some time. They used this nerdy thing I made last night impatiently as an example of photoshop work and the professor from ECNU was all, "This is really a good job," and I covered my face and laughed. I kept saying, "Are you serious?" while my classmates were like, "That's really cool!" XD

I'm learning so much and I love it! I appreciate abstract art SO much more now XD I'm still not quite into modern art as a whole as much, but I am liking abstract art. We were shown so many interesting photographers' photos, and wow. I also appreciate traditional photography much more as well. That's hard work!

 

[Berserk]

PE: One of these days we should go shopping together--I'll buy myself some bras and you buy yourself some jock straps. I mean, it's about time we quit thinking anything could possibly be gender-specific, right? Then we can sit and reflect on how progressive we are.

Man, sometimes I feel as if we haven't progressed at all. I'm having enough trouble dealing with stereotypes for what men can/can't do

I think if you want to talk about progress, you have to make a distinction between what certain genders can/can't do and what they simply do/don't do. I never once said men shouldn't shop for purses or that they should be prohibited from doing so. That would be sexist and regressive. They should be able to shop for whatever they damn well please (within the law XD) and everyone should respect that.

But why do we have to sit here and pretend that both genders do all the same activities equally when, generally speaking, we know they don't? I don't think that is regressive or sexist at all--it's just reality.

Of course there are some individuals who don't identify with society's gender norms or who may be fully transgendered, and that's fine and dandy and they should be treated with dignity and respect. But it doesn't infringe on their rights when the majority still follows some basic gender norms.

Also, not all boys who play rough are being bullies. What your male friends went through obviously is not okay, and that's not what I'm talking about at all. Considering how strongly feminists feel about men and the way they behave, it sure seems like they don't make much of an effort to actually understand men.

So what makes you so sure that men ever felt that way about it? Hmmm? Hmmm?

Because in the past that's how it was XD I don't think men think that way now though

But how do you know that men ever felt that way? Do you have any historical accounts, correspondence, sociological research, etc. as evidence? Or is it an unsupported assumption that feminist thinkers are making?

I think this is an important question to answer. It would all be rather pointless if the supposed fact that this whole debate is based on was never even true to begin with.

Regarding your article there:

I know he's just trying to be nice, and as far as he's aware, he has no ulterior motive. But I still won't let him pay.

This bothers me right away, because she's basing her entire perspective on Freudian-style subconscious speculation. "Oh, he may not think he's being sexist, but subconsciously I know he really is."

Well, actually, she doesn't.

Also, I have never had a problem with splitting the bill and I don't know of anyone who ever has. It's funny that she ends the piece saying, "I suppose the ideal man would be one who is generous enough to offer to pay, but backs down in the face of my argument."

So basically most men would qualify as "ideal men" XD

Maybe she just picks bad dates.

 

[flowersofnight]

PE: One of these days we should go shopping together--I'll buy myself some bras and you buy yourself some jock straps.

Nothing wrong with that. A true gentleman keeps a discreet yet modern collection of bras in his linen closet for the convenience of any female visitors who might unexpectedly need one.
He ALSO keeps a few jock straps, because this is the 90s after all XD

Maybe she just picks bad dates.

All the good dates run for the hills when she shows up to a fancy restaurant in a sweatshirt that says "A WOMAN'S PLACE IS IN THE HOUSE... AND THE SENATE".

 

[Cerceaux]

I'll buy myself some bras

It's not a bra, it's a "manssiere"

Hey, what's wrong with dresses, big pink hair bows, and Barbie?

EDIT: Page 100!

 

[PureElegance]

PE: One of these days we should go shopping together--I'll buy myself some bras and you buy yourself some jock straps. I mean, it's about time we quit thinking anything could possibly be gender-specific, right? Then we can sit and reflect on how progressive we are.

... Yeah, I don't see what's so wrong about that. XD But I don't see how I would have any use for a jock strap though since I can't use it? I thought it was only if you have a penis? Like, if I were to buy one, what would it hold??



You sound so mad though and I don't know why. It's like I'm shaking up your world or something.

But why do we have to sit here and pretend that both genders do all the same activities equally when, generally speaking, we know they don't? I don't think that is regressive or sexist at all--it's just reality.

I don't pretend that, I never said I did so I'm not sure where it's come from, but what I'm saying is that why is it so weird for a guy to go purse shopping or bra shopping at all? I never said that all genders (hohoho) do the same things equally, I just don't understand why it would be weird or "WOAH" for a man to do traditionally female things (I think I repeated this like 4 times in that post), so it wasn't really addressing what you were saying to start with. I think where we're regressive is how we react to a man buying a purse, as if it were something strange and something he shouldn't do. Or if a girl wants to do something traditionally male, it would be hard for her to because it's not considered "feminine" or whatever enough.

Of course there are some individuals who don't identify with society's gender norms or who may be fully transgendered, and that's fine and dandy and they should be treated with dignity and respect. But it doesn't infringe on their rights when the majority still follows some basic gender norms.

Yeah.... XD One could say we should just stop all heteronormative things, or at least stop assuming them in the first place.

LOL if you knew me personally you'd see how odd this all would be sounding coming from me XD

Also, not all boys who play rough are being bullies. What your male friends went through obviously is not okay, and that's not what I'm talking about at all.

I never said all boys who play rough are bullies, but it is what you're talking about and only a part of what COULD happen with this type of behavior though. It's definitely one cause of bullying and it's a negative side effect on this type of behavior. It's always the "I think he's gay" one or the one whose friends with girls, who's nice to girls, who's soften spoken, who doesn't take part in sports as much, etc who normally gets picked on because he doesn't act like the rest of the boys, who are all stereotypically rough and tumble. I don't know why you're ignoring that this is something bad that could and does happen and that the whole "boys will be boys" doesn't also have its negative side to it. I don't think it's all it's chalked up to be because boys who don't act that way have to suffer. Instead you're getting all defensive and saying feminists don't understand men or something.

But how do you know that men ever felt that way? Do you have any historical accounts, correspondence, sociological research, etc. as evidence? Or is it an unsupported assumption that feminist thinkers are making?

Uh, you're asking me if men were ever sexist towards women, I'm sure I can bring you a million examples of that XD I don't see how this isn't obvious. Are you talking about door-holding specifically or what though?

Well, actually, she doesn't.

Yeah, I don't think she does either XD I do though. I can tell when a man's a pig with my pig sensors.

I'd write more but I have to go to class, so I don't think I've been able to flesh out stuff in this post, but oh well.

So basically most men would qualify as "ideal men" XD

I want one to go, "No, I INSIST!" "NO PLEASE, LET ME PAY! *flings wallet at the waiter* I NEED TO PAY!"

That's a real man.

All the good dates run for the hills when she shows up to a fancy restaurant in a sweatshirt that says "A WOMAN'S PLACE IS IN THE HOUSE... AND THE SENATE".

...

Aw man, I think I'm getting a cold! I'm getting this lame cough. C'mon, I ONLY ran out yesterday in the cold with my hair wet without a jacket XD

@Cerceaux: I don't think there's anything wrong with Barbies or anything, but I guess what she's saying is that not every girl, because they're a girl, will automatically like Barbie, which I agree with. I love Barbies and things like that but I hate it when people like her say it's harmful or something. I don't get it.

At the same time though I played with Barbies and with my SNES, Legos, etc. I also wouldn't assume every girl liked baby dolls because I didn't.

 

[Berserk]

... Yeah, I don't see what's so wrong about that. XD But I don't see how I would have any use for a jock strap though since I can't use it? I thought it was only if you have a penis? Like, if I were to buy one, what would it hold??

Just 'cause it makes room for a penis doesn't mean you have to have a penis to wear it!

why is it so weird for a guy to go purse shopping or bra shopping at all?

Why is it so weird for a woman to wear a jockstrap?

But seriously, considering that Mana has been one of my favorite artists of all time, you should know that I don't think breaking gender norms is "weird" in a negative sense.

But it's obviously weird in a statistical sense! And there's nothing wrong with that. That's all I've ever been trying to say here.

It's always the "I think he's gay" one or the one whose friends with girls, who's nice to girls, who's soften spoken, who doesn't take part in sports as much, etc who normally gets picked on because he doesn't act like the rest of the boys, who are all stereotypically rough and tumble. I don't know why you're ignoring that this is something bad that could and does happen and that the whole "boys will be boys" doesn't also have its negative side to it.

We're talking about two different things again. The jocks who give the quiet, nice guys grief are not and never were the nice guys' friends. They're just bullying guys they know are weaker than them to get more jock cred or make themselves feel better about having parents that don't love them.

What I'm talking about applies to most guys, including the nice ones. Even nice guys usually play rough with their guy friends (if they have any)--I know because I and my group of friends were all like that! All the guys I ever knew in high school, whether they were jocks, nerds, stoners, or some mix-and-match of the three were like that with their buddies. But it wasn't the bullying that you're talking about. If anything, it's the opposite of bullying because it's a part of how a lot of guys establish their friendships with each other.

And it's not always physical, either. I and my fellow nerds would get in the biggest verbal sparring matches you ever did see, and people would often look at us and ask, "why are you even friends?!" To us it was obvious--the only reason we were arguing in the first place was because we cared what the other person thought.

Siskel & Ebert were a good example of what I'm talking about.

Instead you're getting all defensive and saying feminists don't understand men or something.

Well, I don't think you do XD

And that kind of matters if you're going to have opinions about how men should be and act. I don't blame you for not understanding everything about men, because I don't understand everything about men or women either--no one does. But I'm always bothered by the way feminists are so confident in how men "must" act a certain way when most of them clearly don't understand the first thing about why men act the way the do.

I'm not saying women shouldn't voice their opinions about men, but maybe rather than making declarations about what men should or shouldn't be feminists should start asking "why" men are the way they are.

Are you talking about door-holding specifically or what though?

Yes, the door-holding specifically. Of course men were extremely sexist towards women in the past in many ways, but do we really know that door-holding was ever a part of that?

---------------------

He ALSO keeps a few jock straps, because this is the 90s after all XD

Either that or a gay bar

@Cerceaux: Classic manssiere XD

 

[sailorKa]

Man, sometimes I feel as if we haven't progressed at all. I'm having enough trouble dealing with stereotypes for what men can/can't do, I can't even imagine what it's like for LGBTQ folks.

it sucks. lol.
As for the door-holding, you/one mostly assume that everyone is doing it out of politeness, since most everywhere I go we all hold the door for anyone thats behind us.
But you do run into assholes.
When people incorrectly read me as female(or want to reinforce their views of myself as such), things can get ugly.
I had this one friend who knew I wasn't female, and when we would arrive TO MY BUILDING, for which I HAD THE KEY, he would stand behind me and try to wait until *I* walked in the door, even thou I had the key and was holding it for everyone else.
He would also try and wait until *I* got off the elevator and get off after me. I confronted him about his attitudes because not only was he ignoring my gender identity, even if I WAS a woman, he'd be doing a pretty douchy thing. He said he was being polite and I said that as the host and owner of the building, I had to be just as polite, if not more.

As for other stuff, queer ppl certainly get the brunt end of the stick.
The minute I come out as trans to someone, they want to tell me IN DETAIL all that I'm doing *wrong* about so-called maleness.
Even thou I didnt ask for their basic-ass opinion, I will get comments on how I walk, the way I talk, the way I gesture with my hands, the words I use, etc etc. One 'friend' even commented that my braces were feminine...AND HE HAD BRACES.
Funny thing is, and this is how my experience is a bit more personal, Im gay too, so I get to say "f*ck that hetero macho BS, I can gesture with my hands and say 'fabulous' as much as I freaking want" but I know people are way less lenient to straight men.

Basically, everything that seems like "sexism" against men is really misogyny and sexism in disguise. Why can't men wear pink or drink appletinis or gesture with their hands or cry? Because those things are too 'feminine' and feminine=undesirable, emasculating, bad.

@Iska: Im going to reply to your Che comment from page 98 in the Chavez thread cuz who knows how long this thread will last XD

--k

 

[PureElegance]

Why can't men wear pink or drink appletinis or gesture with their hands or cry? Because those things are too 'feminine' and feminine=undesirable, emasculating, bad.

Yeah. I'm not sure why things like those are gender-specific. I basically agree with everything you said, so I don't want to make this long post even longer!

Just 'cause it makes room for a penis doesn't mean you have to have a penis to wear it!

I was going to edit this because I knew you were going to say that but I had to run out. Since I don't identify as male or as having a penis I don't think it would be useful for me personally. If another woman wants to buy it though then she can go ahead.

Why is it so weird for a woman to wear a jockstrap?

When did I say it was weird? If I identified as a man (or anything else) or if I liked them then I would go buy one, but since I don't then it wouldn't apply to me. If a woman wants to buy one then she can for her own reasons, I don't think it's odd. I'm not saying it's weird, but not cost efficient for me since it would take up space in my leggings and pants in general, but it depends on the type you'd get too, some are tighter than others so I'm not sure. I've never worn one before because they're ugly, but I don't think the penis area, since it's baggy in a place I have nothing in, would cling as much to my skin as the normal underwear would. Why are you assuming I think it's strange? That's what I don't understand about you XD It's like you're trying to be smart but it's not coming out right since you're just assuming things about what I think.

I'm not sure why anyone in general would wear a jockstrap though, those things are ugly XD Do people really like having their entire butts exposed like that? I don't think it makes one look attractive or sexy. I suppose it adds for easy access, but I'd rather wear a thong because at least it adds some shape instead of full on exposure.

But it's obviously weird in a statistical sense! And there's nothing wrong with that. That's all I've ever been trying to say here.

All I've been trying to say this entire time is that I don't get why it would be weird for a man to buy a purse

We're talking about two different things again. The jocks who give the quiet, nice guys grief are not and never were the nice guys' friends. They're just bullying guys they know are weaker than them to get more jock cred or make themselves feel better about having parents that don't love them.

But don't you think that the culture is part of it? Why do many guys act like that? I doubt every single one in the US has unloving parents. I think it's partly because there's the pressure to be "manly" and some go do the whole jock thing since it's pretty much the ultimate "manly" thing to be. We're talking about different things, but isn't the reason why they're *not* friends because the nice quiet guys aren't seen as being tough, strong, athletic, built, etc enough--- which are traditional signs of manhood?

Besides, it depends on what they believe is "weak" too. The nice quiet guy can have the inner strength of a mountain, but he's not perceived as such since:

1. He's really a nice person in general
2. He probably isn't as into sports (OH GOD)
3. He's not loud or rough or "one of the guys" in that way
4. He might have friends who are girls

Why are the stereotypical male nerds/not traditionally manly guys picked on so much? You really think it doesn't have anything to do with what we normally would encourage in men in our society? I'm not talking about how friends interact with each other, or those who have brotherly or rival relationships, but why some guys who do things like be polite to everyone are picked out and bullied, which has to do with the expectations of what men should be like. By treating these boys and guys this way because of rigid views on what men should be like is treating them as inferior. I'm not saying that playing rough is by itself a bad thing, but I don't think we should cling on to it, praise it and expect boys to be that way since it's only hurting the ones that aren't that way.

If a guy is into poetry, reading, or whatnot, things that aren't considered "manly" or "strong" like playing football or whatever, he definitely has a higher chance of being looked down upon for being that way by his male peers. I keep seeing this since I was little starting with a boy named German (pronounced Herr-mahn; a Spanish name) in elementary school.

One boy I want to point out because I was in love with him was Philipp. I remember when he first came, other boys would pick on him because they thought he was LIKE A GURL. He had girl friends, he wasn't into sports, he was tall and lean, a proper guy, and didn't like to get dirty as much. I also don't think it helped that he had a kind of "delicate" appearance partly due to his being German. He only attained his "guy" status when he got a girlfriend because the guys thought he was gay before that and would call him a fag, gay, or tease him, for the reasons I stated above. This has repeated itself with different guys all throughout those years continuing now at my supposedly enlightened university.

And it's not always physical, either. I and my fellow nerds would get in the biggest verbal sparring matches you ever did see, and people would often look at us and ask, "why are you even friends?!" To us it was obvious--the only reason we were arguing in the first place was because we cared what the other person thought.

How is that only a guy/nerd thing? I argue with my *~GURL FRIENDZ~* a lot and debate with them, IRL and off. Not only my girl friends, but also guy friends since I have a good mix of both. People mistake us as hating each other as well.

Isn't that something you do with people whose opinions you care about? I like it when my friends disagree with me because it shows they care enough to voice their opinion. It's a huge sign that I care. I like it when people care enough to challenge me.

But I'm always bothered by the way feminists are so confident in how men "must" act a certain way when most of them clearly don't understand the first thing about why men act the way the do.

I'm not saying women shouldn't voice their opinions about men, but maybe rather than making declarations about what men should or shouldn't be feminists should start asking "why" men are the way they are.

The things I'm concerned about aren't things like "OMG did he open the door for me because he thinks I'm weak?!" but more about issues like rape, sex discrimination, prostitution, the Middle East, and power dynamics between men and women. I focus on a lot of depressing things because that's what keeps me going. The whole opening the door thing might have been an issue 60 years ago, but it's not high on my priority list because I don't think it's something harmful nowadays. All I would ask for is for men to treat women well and not as their inferiors.

I don't think you should generalize feminists either because I only am talking about a few women and it's definitely not the majority. This entire time I only quoted one lady and said that "some" women feel like it's a bad thing, I wouldn't group everyone together because that's insulting and too much of a simplification for such a diverse group of people. That's my main problem with what you're saying because it seems like you're only getting defensive as if feminists were your enemy. I haven't clumped all men together as bullies, as pigs, etc because I love men and I have wonderful men in my life but you seem to keep clumping feminists together as if we're all of one mind.

Yes, the door-holding specifically. Of course men were extremely sexist towards women in the past in many ways, but do we really know that door-holding was ever a part of that?

Haven't you ever heard of chivalry when it comes to women's treatment? It's basically sexist in that it's treating women as different than men, as if they need to be taken care of, men being the heroes, putting women on a pedestal instead of treating everyone with common courtesy. I don't think chivalry is the end of the world and I don't mind it, but doing things like holding doors open for women only is sexist in that you're treating one sex differently than another. In this day and age I don't believe it's something harmful and I think it's nice thing to do for people in general. Anyway, whenever a guy (not a stranger) does something like that for me I believe it's because he cares and wants to be nice.

Many men in the US, China, Peru, the world, are still sexist now, just in different ways XD Unless I see the amount of rapes towards women as equal to men, getting beatings as equal, sex discrimination claims as equal, women not being 70% of the world's poor, women not forcibly going through FGM, the statistic that "gender based violence kills 1 in 3 women worldwide" is changed, female fetuses are not aborted because they're female, women getting into better jobs, etc. etc. etc. I'm not going to believe everything is amazing and equal for women. I'll probably die before any of this is changed as much, but it's a dream.

 

[sailorKa]

fully transgendered

XD I wont even get into what you were trying to say cuz I didnt get it but just a heads-up, ppl are just "transgender." Never 'fully'(??? how does that work? are some peole FULLY female? FULLY gay? FULLY heterosexual? XD) and never '-ed' because Transgender is an adjective, not a noun and not something that is ~done upon you~. To compare, people aren't gayed, they're just gay. Its mostly a grammar thing but thought I'd let you know.

This bothers me right away, because she's basing her entire perspective on Freudian-style subconscious speculation. "Oh, he may not think he's being sexist, but subconsciously I know he really is."

Oppression being subconscious a lot of the time is not Freudian speculation thou.
Like, plenty of white people may have non-white friends and say that they're ABSOLUTELY not-racist, but a lot of the things they do or say are. They're not being CONSCIOUSLY racist, as in, they're not acting out of malice, but we DO grow up in a society that benefits from hierarchies and we DO internalize shit without even realizing it.
How many times have I had some straight person whine at me that they "dont mean GAY people when they say something tacky is 'sooo gay'."
CONSCIOUSLY, they might even genuinely believe they're not harming gay ppl by saying those things but subconsciously a lot more is going on, including the fact that ppl who DO think of gay ppl as bad or tacky are hearing "yes, we agree with you" when they hear ppl say those words.
tl;dr We do plenty of shit for unconscious reasons and yes, some of those things are sexist and misogynist. Its not a bad thing to analyze why we act certain ways instead of just saying "it is what it is!"
Specially when after recent studies, they concluded that men and women are basically the same(as in, there's no gender-specific personality traits. So women aren't 'nurturing' and 'emotional' and men aren't 'stoic' or 'uncontrollable' by nature, we're just brought up to believe thats how we ~naturally~ behave.)

Considering how strongly feminists feel about men and the way they behave, it sure seems like they don't make much of an effort to actually understand men.

??? I'm sorry to tell you that you've been duped by the mainstream media's idea of a feminism. What is this even from?!
You need to analyze what people say. When women say "Women aren't JUST nurturing" to men, they're not only establishing the fact that women can be other things, they're pointing out that this gender role is ALSO limiting to men who are ridiculed for being nurturing themselves or who pretend they aren't so they will seem 'manlier' to the masses.
Feminism, to me, is all about INTERSECTIONALITY.
“I am not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own.” - Audre Lorde.
One can't pretend to be a feminist and then only care about the rights of white middle-class women, for example.
That famous quote about the wage gap? "women earn 67 cents to a man's dollar"? Thats WHITE women. Women of Color earn a LOT less than that compared to white men.
So while male privilege obviously puts men at the top of the food chain in many ways, liberating many misconceptions we have about gender will liberate eventually people of ALL genders, men included.
You can't fight women's rights without fighting for trans* rights, because some women are trans*. You can't fight womens rights without fighting racism, because some women are black/PoC. etc etc.
You can't fight to liberate women and end up "enslaving men" or "hating them."
Thats some basic generalization you see in movies. You can dislike the patriarchy but that doesn't mean you 'hate men.'
Just like people can dislike 'whiteness' as a system of oppression, without 'hating' white people themselves.
Its the system the one feminists are fighting against, not men.

Sincerely,
--a feminist dude.

 

[flowersofnight]

Oppression being subconscious a lot of the time is not Freudian speculation thou.

But you don't actually believe that, you're just saying it because you've been subconsciously programmed to. And if you don't believe it, why should I?

 

[sailorKa]

Oppression being subconscious a lot of the time is not Freudian speculation thou.

But you don't actually believe that, you're just saying it because you've been subconsciously programmed to. And if you don't believe it, why should I?

LOL. yes, yes, quite a conumdrum.
Damn it, how will we ever get out of this labyrinth of subconscious suffering?

--k

 

[Berserk]

If I identified as a man (or anything else) or if I liked them then I would go buy one, but since I don't then it wouldn't apply to me.

So how is that any different than anything I said? I never suggested that people should go out and beat up guys who like to go purse shopping. I was just using that as an example of an activity that hardly any men ever partake in (unless they're buying it as a gift or something).

There's no objective reason for men not to carry purses. But it's not a part of our culture's practices for men, and since men's pants usually have suitably large pockets anyways, most men simply will never do that. Just like you will probably never wear jockstraps even though there's no technical reason for you not to either.

All I've been trying to say this entire time is that I don't get why it would be weird for a man to buy a purse

I think there's some miscommunication over the word "weird". I don't mean it in a discriminatory sense or as a synonym for the word "wrong", I just mean it in the sense that it is "unusual" or "rare".

Since you listed all the reasons why you would never want to buy a jockstrap for yourself and you admit that you never wear them, I would consider it "weird" if you went shopping for one anyway. Most men have all kinds of reasons for never buying a purse, so if they went out and did it anyway, that would be "weird" or "unusual" or whatever you want to call it.

But obviously if a man is a cross-dresser or identifies as gender queer in some way, then it could be perfectly "normal" for him (or her, or however he/she identifies) to buy one if he wanted to.

I'm not sure why anyone in general would wear a jockstrap though, those things are ugly XD Do people really like having their entire butts exposed like that?

Yeah, most athletes have moved on to wearing compression shorts (or nothing at all ) because they think jocks are embarrassing to wear. But jocks are still practical in some sports for being able to contain a protective cup and provide more freedom of movement than regular underwear. And then there's a big market for them in the gay community... for obvious reasons

How is that only a guy/nerd thing?

I thought you might ask that, and it's really not exclusive to guys. But I think it's more common for guys to be that way than girls, especially when it starts getting physical (I mean, you might argue/debate with your girlfriends but how often do you wrestle each other? XD).

It was always girls who would ask us, "why are you even friends?" because in their opinion friends "don't ever fight" or something.

The things I'm concerned about aren't things like "OMG did he open the door for me because he thinks I'm weak?!" but more about issues like rape, sex discrimination, prostitution, the Middle East, and power dynamics between men and women.

I respect that and I agree that those are all really serious issues. I also understand that the "little things" matter too, because they can reinforce people's mindsets about men and women. But I don't think the door-holding thing, at least in America, is an issue. Apparently some people in Venezuela are keeping it an issue, but I suppose South America is in a different place than the U.S. when it comes to gender issues.

I don't think you should generalize feminists either because I only am talking about a few women and it's definitely not the majority.

I agree. But the two feminists you brought up in this conversation have written tirades about door-holding and who pays the dinner bill

I don't want to generalize feminists as a whole (I mean, I guess I'm a feminist too since I believe in equal rights and fair treatment), but there certainly is "that kind" of feminist who will rant about how oppressive her date is simply because he offered to pick up the tab.

Unless I see the amount of rapes towards women as equal to men, getting beatings as equal, sex discrimination claims as equal, women not being 70% of the world's poor, women not forcibly going through FGM, the statistic that "gender based violence kills 1 in 3 women worldwide" is changed, female fetuses are not aborted because they're female, women getting into better jobs, etc. etc. etc. I'm not going to believe everything is amazing and equal for women.

I agree, except that I don't think all of those things are ever going to be perfectly equal simply because men and women are not perfectly the same. There are lots of men who get raped, for instance, but it's usually by other men (though I do know a couple girls personally who have raped men) for various physiological reasons.

 

[Berserk]

fully transgendered

XD I wont even get into what you were trying to say cuz I didnt get it but just a heads-up, ppl are just "transgender." Never 'fully'(??? how does that work? are some peole FULLY female? FULLY gay? FULLY heterosexual? XD) and never '-ed' because Transgender is an adjective, not a noun and not something that is ~done upon you~. To compare, people aren't gayed, they're just gay. Its mostly a grammar thing but thought I'd let you know.

Alright, alright! Excuse me for not knowing all the proper terminology! It's not like I run into this kind of stuff on a regular basis here in Michigan

I looked it up, and what I meant by "partially transgender" is really what's called "gender queer". And "transgendered" ends in -ed precisely because it is an adjective XD "Transgender" would be the noun and "transgendered" the adjective you use to describe them as such.

While I agree that people do do things subconsciously, it's useless to speculate about it when we can't truly know what is going on in anyone's subconscious mind. People often like to use subconscious analysis as a way to be controlling--because, after all, no one can disprove it. That gives them a lot of leeway to make up whatever narrative they find convenient.

??? I'm sorry to tell you that you've been duped by the mainstream media's idea of a feminism. What is this even from?!

Mostly from the feminists who rant on the Internet and the ones who I know in day-to-day life (I know a girl who refuses to rent an apartment from male landlords).

A lot of women, from college professors to stay-at-home moms, don't understand men and seem to find them vaguely irritating or scary and are eager to complain about them.

But I know that it's a two-way street, and also that there are a lot of good women who do more-or-less understand men (or at least try!)

I also know that the feminist movement is important and relevant today for a lot of reasons, and I agree with it on the big stuff like what PE listed as being her main concerns. It's usually the little stuff, and the bad attitudes I frequently see, that I don't agree with and that I wish would change.

 

[PureElegance]

For the record, I'm not actually mad at Berserk or anything XD We're actually a lot nicer to each other over PMs! I guess you could say this is one of those sparring things!

But I think it's more common for guys to be that way than girls, especially when it starts getting physical (I mean, you might argue/debate with your girlfriends but how often do you wrestle each other? XD).

Wrestling is for barbarians (I'd prefer it if you'd put stars and squiggles and make the text pink when you type "girl friends")

I don't want to generalize feminists as a whole (I mean, I guess I'm a feminist too since I believe in equal rights and fair treatment), but there certainly is "that kind" of feminist who will rant about how oppressive her date is simply because he offered to pick up the tab.

Yeah, I don't like those kinds of feminists usually, especially when they start to criticize how other women live their lives. I sent that to you as an example of someone I don't agree with. I would only agree if the woman was being hit by her husband or being treated like dirt or something, but some criticisms I see at times are about... wearing heels... wearing makeup... I don't know, I don't really understand those criticisms.

When women say "Women aren't JUST nurturing" to men, they're not only establishing the fact that women can be other things, they're pointing out that this gender role is ALSO limiting to men who are ridiculed for being nurturing themselves or who pretend they aren't so they will seem 'manlier' to the masses.

I just want to say that I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH THIS. I can't believe you used the "women are nurturing" example because that specifically gets me riled up!

NYU took a small group of us to a 1,700 year old watertown. Oh my God, it was seriously wonderful. When this thread gets deleted, I'm going to still talk about my trip today since it was like a dream!

As we were being driven out of Shanghai, I was sitting by the window and looking out, and it was beautiful! You saw more residential areas, farms, so many trees, etc... "A Whole New World" came up and I kind of wanted to cry because it was so wonderful with the music. I feel as if the song has taken a whole new meaning for me now, as cornola as that sounds ^^;; Especially the "unbelievable sights, indescribable feeling" and "I'm like a shooting star, I've come so far, I can't go back to where I used to be" parts!

every turn a surpriseeeee

When we got there we went through a huge, sprawling mansion which was beautiful with its gardens. Then we got on little boats and were rowed through the town, and I was so happy. There was a point where we were rowed from a narrow canal, and from one moment to the next it opened up to so much open water, tall temples and old houses, and it was beautiful! I wish I could re-live it. We laughed a ton as well. The food was SO delicious and I even ate some jellyfish and the local cuisine.

They actually had a replica of Zhuge Liang's fan, made with goosefeathers. I bought it of course and I'm kind of giddy. ^_^

 

[flowersofnight]

I can't believe you used the "women are nurturing" example because that specifically gets me riled up!

It's like I always say, real men know how to appreciate a dour, emasculating harpy XD

As we were being driven out of Shanghai

BTW that reminds me, you're not drinking that pig water, are you?

 

[PureElegance]

It's like I always say, real men know how to appreciate a dour, emasculating harpy XD

...

That's not what I mean at all!! XD Gawd.

BTW that reminds me, you're not drinking that pig water, are you?

No Andrew, I'm not drinking pig water Our tap water is fine though, but that's because we're at a university and that's a nice place. I wouldn't drink tap water at some shop or something. At the restaurant our water was totally boiled and I'm fine. I've eaten a lot of street things, things from hole in the wall places, things from places that aren't the cleanest, things from nice/fancy/cheap restaurants and I'm fine. No one here has really gotten sick and I haven't had a stomach ache or anything remotely related. Maybe it's because I have the mandate of heaven, who knows.

One thing I wouldn't recommend is fishing in the park. I don't know how they eat those fish they catch XD

I can't get over that trip! It was beautiful. Even the people who don't get AS excited about things were really enjoying themselves and we got kind of a bit giddy, even silly. It wasn't just one of those nice field trips, this was really different and wonderful. I'm still kind of... really happy. I guess you can call it bliss and being happy with life. We all got on the bus and fell asleep. When we returned home we went, "Did that actually happen?"

It's so interesting to explore the gardens though. I can't even imagine what it would've been like to live there, with that as your backyard, your garden to stroll through whenever you felt like. Most of the town was built by one family! They also held performances of Peony Pavilion there and I was like, "I saw that in NYC and read the play "

I haven't uploaded my pics yet, but here's one that was uploaded of me and a friend at a weapon shop while we were in the town:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 8249_n.jpg

Here's me with a guy who I thought looked like he was from a boy band (you can't tell from here), my friends teased me a lot and said I should take a picture with him. It's my attempt to be inconspicuous.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 3528_n.jpg

Yeah XD